To think the able bodied / mind/ non carer/ non low wage s worker on benefits, benefit population that claim benefits should contribute somehow to the community/ get the money for WORK .

[Crikeymaccrikey]

Yes this may be costly to set up such as enhanced dbs checks etc.

I feel that this would both give a purpose and a contribution. And lead to jobs possibly/ develop cv / show work ethic.

In addition , it may stop the resentment and the benefit bashing if the claimants are seen to be contributing to society.

This is not necessarily a tory notion.
Karl Marxs idea about each to ones own ability... encompasses this idea of people working together for the whole of society accordi ng to ability. A quick google implies this is actually a socilaist idea of all doing what they can . This is what i am suggesting.

And before anyone says they would be pushed into things.. maybe there could be a choice of ways to contribute ,like on a data base.

Also, I am a cleaner myself. I literally clean poo off loos. I do not feel less worthy than others . I do the job because I can no longer work in my profession , as I get older, ( burnt out nhs) and see nothing but value in my ( ? Seen as some,lowly work). It gives me structure, a decent wage, and I contribute. All good. No shame in doing a good job , whatever that job if it is in my ability.

How can this idea, properly managed be other than reasonable. ?

This has to be a joke or a poor attempt at satire.

Benefits are not generous at all. How is a little more than £70 per week "generous"?

If you think it is, then give up your job and go claim it.

People should be expected to work full time too, unless they can afford to work part time without being subsidised by the state

That would involve at lot more wrap around childcare bring available.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 I take it you've never used the NHS then? Received statutory sick pay? You paid your own way at the dentist as a child? Because if you have then you've benefitted from the emergency funds we provide as tax payers to make sure we look after our vulnerable. If you do away with benefits then you are also likely to see increases in mental health decline, people having to choose between feeding their children or heating them in winter, people with disabilities utterly reliant on families they might not have and people literally starving or turning to crime, children having to leave school early to bring in money and getting trapped in low wage cycles. Never mind the impact on women who are able to leave abusive relationships due to benefits. Having benefits affords all of us a nicer more tolerant society to live in. So it directly benefits you for them to exist even if you don't want to admit it.

do not want to pay for your family or your problems.

I never get these posters, why don't they just live in a country where they don't have to pay for other peoples problems if other countries are less generous with benefits.

do not want to pay for your family or your problems

Well, one day it could be you with the problem. Illness or accident could happen anytime.
Stay humble.

Why are EU migrants namely from former E-bloc countries at all skill levels able to make a positive fiscal contribution

Well that's what migrants do isn't it? Appear in a country having spent their initial economically inactive years (childhood) and been educated at the expense of their country of origin, in good enough health that they can work (no point in migrating if you can't). That's why economic migrants generally benefit the countries they move to.

I never thought I would be on benefits long term, I was on the dole for 18 months when I left school in the 80's but got a job then that I stayed in for 27 years. When I got married we both worked full time, we didn't have a massive income, probably £40k between us. I got pregnant & the plan was that I would work part time after my ML, our parents both offered to do childcare & my husband worked shifts so he could do his bit according to his shifts. Unfortunately he went blind driving to work & we found out he had MS, I was 8 months pregnant at the time, due to his dangerous job he was unable to carry on working & had to claim sickness benefits, I went back to work part time & was able to claim tax credits to make up my money, we had gone from having £40k coming in to having just over £20k & having a baby to bring up, I was also a carer for my husband. When my marriage ended I became a single parent I started being very ill & had to stop working, I had to rely completely on benefits. In 12 years I have had to go through 4 assessments for ESA, 3 assessments for PIP or DLA, the assessments are awful, you have a stranger completely picking through every aspect of your life. Right through from how you manage to get dressed, bathed, go to the toilet including how do you wipe your bum, how you cook, eat meals, how you manage your money. This is before they start on can you walk or go out on your own. You have to allow a complete stranger in to your home who then goes & tells lies about you in the report. You then spend months dreading an envelope dropping through your door telling you your money is going to be reduced or stopped. Then you have to go through the stress of your car that is your lifeline being taken off you & have to go through a reconsideration & an appeal to get the money that is rightfully yours back. Benefits aren't a lifestyle choice & it is by no means easy to get them. Anyone who thinks different is welcome to try it.

I wonder how many 'generational claiments' you think there are? You seem to imply that those on benefits are there due to cba, or lacking in confidence.

I think that whilst there was a time when benefits were more generous, and rightly so, those days have gone.
There will always be some people living on benefits and fit for work. But if truly not working due to crippling lack of confidence I would consider this MH and need medical support.

I think pursuing these people.is a waste of money compared with trying to get real money back say from Covid loans or tax dodging.

Let's not forget the millions not claimed by people who are eligible.

People in full time work need to be 'subsidised by the state' because their employers don't pay them enough.

And yes, £77pw is incredibly generous, if you live in 1982.

Those employers include the state itself. Quite a large number of DWP’s work coaches will need to claim UC themselves. Ironically.

I cannot quote everyone.
'To think the able-bodied / mind/non-carer/non-low wage s worker on benefits, benefit population that claims benefits should contribute somehow to the community/ get the money for WORK'.
That was the thread title, then the thread has been hijacked and straw manned.

@pointythings I deliberately mentioned E-bloc-ex soviet countries workforce.
Now if you are educated you can use google scholar to research the European migration human capital outcomes and skills. Then you'll understand for academic purposes there is a differentiation between the migrant's high-killed and low-skilled.

Now you used yourself as a qualitative example as did I. Dp is from an ex-soviet country. The average income in her country is 200 euros, and her average income in this country is £2600 net. Hence the comment about liking the money. I don't think migrants come here to enjoy the delights of beans on toast, do you?

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759376/The_Fiscal_Impact_of_Immigration_on_the_UK.pdf
This is just one example.
Now the research mentions the fiscal lifecycle of the migrants doesn't include education or health as that has been paid for in the country of origin. To counter that claim, a high percentage of migrants do have children and these children do use public services such as health and education. They have not contributed to these services prior to their arrival. They're still net positives.

What I cannot understand is the pragmatic and rational quantitative and qualitative research clearly shows EAA migrants as net benefactors to the UK compared to natives across all measures.
Yet people go to great lengths to excuse these disparities with wonderful tales of woe is me or others. I think there are vast swathes of British who have bought into the pseudo-science 101 reasons why I'm a useless citizen.
Whataboutery 101.

High-Skilled.😂

I don't think it's at all surprising that migrants are motivated and work hard. After all this is a cohort that is sufficiently motivated to actually move to a different country in order to find work and earn money.

The idea that this is due to some inherently superior model of family life is inaccurate though. Throughout Russia and former eastern bloc countries there are hundreds of thousands of "social orphans" who live in institutions because their family circumstances are such - due to poverty/substance abuse/domestic violence - that their parents are unable to raise them. So if we're going to talk about the societal effects/expression of family breakdown then perhaps we could also talk about countries where families routinely break down to the extent that parents actually abandon their children? And maybe realise that very few places have quite got this right.

Due to the nature of the discussion.
It's quite obvious I took a broad brush approach.
Attempting to discount my message by whataboutery is nonsense.

The prime optimal position for society is the success sequence.
Supporting via the benefits system other choices is NOT sustainable.
The thread wasn't about abandoning disabled people or other minor outliers.

We have a boat with 100 rowers-we now have 30/40% at the bottom end, not rowing-10% at the top end, not rowing which leaves 50-60% of rowers pushing UK plc freeriding exist at both ends. The benefits system demotivates and rewards behavior.
Using minor success stories of circumventing poor choices as an example of circumventing life choices is absurd. All qualitative and quantitative honest research points to the same conclusion for the vast majority of people who make these choices.
Saying here's an anomaly you're wrong isn't a valid argument.
Whatever is happening, the direction of travel is not sustainable.

What are you on about? We haven't got 50% unemployment.

As for "whataboutery", you're the one giving out this deranged bollocks about how Eastern Europeans are better workers than UK citizens because their states don't support broken families or whatever.

I mean, it's true, they don't, but the flipside of that is that a lot of children are raised in institutions. (Those children generally don't grow up to be well balanced high functioning economic powerhouses btw.)

I notice at least one of the other "I have personal knowledge of someone pretending to be disabled to claim PIP" threads that have popped up like mushrooms this week was deleted with a message saying it was started by a troll.

So clearly there are trolls on MN right now actively trying to spread lies about disabled benefits claimants and start benefits-bashing and disability-bashing arguments.

I also notice that the person advocating for poor people to be locked up in prisons and forcibly sterilised is on another thread getting hysterical about satanists/ satanic ritual abuse and people practising witchcraft in Scotland. Apparently the real problem isn't poverty or unemployment, it's witches.

What he seems to be on about is his previously stated assertion that 30% of people in society are "not fit for purpose".

What would you like to happen to these people, @Hrpuffnstuff1 ?

I almost hope s/he doesn't answer that. Urgh.

For some reason, you're straw manning yet again.
Boring.
You're taking 2 different points combining them and making up a scenario that hasn't been commented on.

@ilovesooty
It's not me that's asserted 101 reasons why people cannot be made to work by the state if they're not suitable to be employed by private business.
I don't want to support them. I have my own family to support.
One of the benefits of owning a business is being able to keep more income for myself and my family.

You're the one that brought up the issue of "broken families". I admit that I'm finding your thought process a little difficult to follow but you seemed to be relating it to whether or not a person is economically productive. If you weren't, and were just randomly throwing it into the conversation for no reason, then apologies for responding to it.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 you have stated that 30% of people in society are "not fit for purpose"

Apart from stating that you don't want to support them, you haven't said what you think should happen to them. Are you prepared to answer that question or not?

I said this on the other thread, but claiming job seekers' allowance is made as degrading as it possibly can be. If you choose that over getting a job, then you are unemployable anyway.

Employers would not want these people working for them because they would be useless.

Oh, and I take it you mean one of the benefits of owning your own business is a greater capacity for tax avoidance @Hrpuffnstuff1 ?

That's certainly how I'm reading it.