To think the able bodied / mind/ non carer/ non low wage s worker on benefits, benefit population that claim benefits should contribute somehow to the community/ get the money for WORK .

[Crikeymaccrikey]

Yes this may be costly to set up such as enhanced dbs checks etc.

I feel that this would both give a purpose and a contribution. And lead to jobs possibly/ develop cv / show work ethic.

In addition , it may stop the resentment and the benefit bashing if the claimants are seen to be contributing to society.

This is not necessarily a tory notion.
Karl Marxs idea about each to ones own ability... encompasses this idea of people working together for the whole of society accordi ng to ability. A quick google implies this is actually a socilaist idea of all doing what they can . This is what i am suggesting.

And before anyone says they would be pushed into things.. maybe there could be a choice of ways to contribute ,like on a data base.

Also, I am a cleaner myself. I literally clean poo off loos. I do not feel less worthy than others . I do the job because I can no longer work in my profession , as I get older, ( burnt out nhs) and see nothing but value in my ( ? Seen as some,lowly work). It gives me structure, a decent wage, and I contribute. All good. No shame in doing a good job , whatever that job if it is in my ability.

How can this idea, properly managed be other than reasonable. ?

@Patsy400 - I have DD1, who suffers a life threatening, degenerative condition. The person she was at 16, no longer exists! I applied for DLA, ESA and NHS Continuing Health Care for her. Even our Social Services admitted no family could cope with her complex needs; while I have to fill in pages of forms to justify to the DWP, why she can’t work, because she needs an onsite medical team 24/7!

DD2 was overwhelmed with grief at what has happened to DD1 for 10 years (as were we all, but we had to earn the money to keep the roof over our heads), and developed severe MH problems, including complex PTSD as a result. I have attended a PIP assessment with her, and watched how the assessor, an OT didn’t have a clue about MH like that.

She lives in a flat with electric heaters and a lot of damp! Hence the electric bill of £215 - and the flat is still freezing in the winter!

Dla was the old disability benefits I was trying to remember, I assume PIP is the replacement?
Yes it’s wrong that someone with a permanent disability has to go through the stress of re-assessments, not to mention a waste of time and money. And wrong that you are not entitled to the replacement DLA if your disability is still the same.
But cannot people see that it is because of fraudulent claims, that causes the problems, and by not making an example of these people, will continue to make life harder for everyone not least the genuinely disabled or others in need of any other benefits support.

PIP is the replacement but some areas haven’t moved onto it yet. They are still on DLA.

What I have been aware of, but never party to or condoned in anyway, all my adult life, is the vast amount of tax evasion in this country - and the amounts far outweigh what benefit claimants get away with mostly! Then there are the legal loopholes like company directors paid themselves just above the NI threshold, so they paid the minimum amount to get their state pension; but then paid themselves mostly in dividends, which didn’t attract NI! That’s just one example!

@TheSummerPalace thanks for explaining- I didn’t expect you to give your full personal details on your situation I just didn’t know what meant with regards to your daughters benefits payment.

No one needs to justify to me their personal circumstances- i don’t know you and have no reason to doubt what your saying is the truth. I’m sorry you’ve have had/ having such a difficult time and I say that with experience living a difficult life( but very different experience to yours) and I hope both your daughters get the help and support they deserve.

my previous comments/ posts were based on 3 individuals I know very well personally, who all claim benefits(1disability, 2 U/C) when in fact they are very capable of work. I don’t want a system that penalises genuine claimants and punishes the innocent, but to just accept fraud is detrimental to everyone.

@TheSummerPalace You are not wrong on any of that, I did mention that earlier. But this thread wasn’t about tax evasion. and yes benefits fraud is only a part of what’s wrong and probably a small part in comparison.
If only I was smarter and didn’t have a conscience I may adopt the “crime does pay” attitude.

And how many people is that? Probably not that many. MT and the Tories have done well with you

@Patsy400 you are indeed very naive. People under investigation get no money. That's thousands of innocent people every year, all for the sake of catching a tiny few. What's causing the suffering isn't those few people, it's the Tories whipping up fury and making people want to believe they're all at it. And you have fallen for it.

Do you imagine £77 a week is going to make you rich?

I've got a bridge to sell you.

I don't know how clear it can be made, maybe words of one syllable?
By the system going after the tiny amount of dodgy claimants, it costs more to run than they gain back but actually I'm ok with that, because there are a few who do abuse the system. I'm less happy with the broad brush where (a pp put it) 100 people lose all benefits whilst the investigation is done to find the 2 that were somehow claiming £77 each week.

You seem happy enough for 100 people to literally starve and become homeless to be able to punish those 2.i know what that says about you

I get PIP because I'm disabled (I don't look it) and I used to be on DLA. When I first was told to apply for DLA I was also told "they'll turn you down but you'll get it on appeal. Don't worry, they do it to everyone". That's exactly what heppened; what a ridiculous amount of time, energy, paperwork and money wasted.

Now I get PIP. It's less than DLA was, but hey! prices go down as well as up don't they?

I have to be assessed every two years, COVID permitting, because I might suddenly no longer have secondary progressive ms and they do have to check there's not been a miracle.

I used to be able to work and was utterly miserable when I discovered that having been a very marketable individual, working in Head Offices in capital cities at splendid salaries, I was suddenly persona non grata to every single organisation I applied to. My skills and experience hadn't suddenly disappeared overnight, but no one wanted me.

I eventually got a job as a an online researcher for a publisher but by that time I had had a serious attack since I'd last worked, and so had deteriorated and was OK with basically doing grunt work, part-time. And still claiming PIP - which is primarily supposed to compensate for extra difficulties the person encounters through being disabled, not a basic welfare payment - but my husnabd's WTC was cut by just a tiny little bit more than I earned, so we were worse off anyway. He was delighted when I stopped working (office closed down) but he didn't regain his WTC.

Now we have his state pension (700 pm approx) and my PIP (500pm approx) and that's what we live on.

So thank you for paying so much and keeping us out of destitution. i'm sorry you find it such a bind.

BTW, we haven't been away, even overnight, for nearly 10 years now.

And there we have it. Can all the benefit vilifiers on here please look at @Jux 's post and let it sink in: it can happen to anyone. It could happen to you.

So get your head out of your arse and stop whining about benefits when there's tax avoiders to chase instead.

It's not benefit vilifiers.
It's is the status quo sustainable?
NO.
Why are EU migrants namely from former E-bloc countries at all skill levels able to make a positive fiscal contribution?
Answers on a postcard to-we've had familial social breakdown since the 60s and now it chickens home to roost time.
I do not want to pay for your family or your problems.
Oops.

The biggest scandal with disability benefits is the appalling waste of money that is spend on needless appeals.

The appeals tribunal building in Glasgow has something like 17 rooms. Every weekday each of those rooms has an independently hired panel chair (usually a lawyer or the likes), a doctor, and many rooms also have a welfare rights worker. All of those people are paid for by taxpayers.

Around 70% those appeals are won by claimants. That’s despite the fact that more and more people have to go it alone and don’t have CAB or the likes to help them anymore.

Can you imagine the cost of those appeals?! People wait months because they are so busy.

Yet the rhetoric is still focussed on how bad it is that 0.3% of claims are the subject of fraud and error - so less than 0.3% is fraud.

any other workplace getting that amount of decisions wrong would see a public outcry. Yet all the public see is the greedy scroungers on the fiddle.

Unemployment benefits make up less than 1% of the entire welfare bill. How is 1% unreasonable or unsustainable?

Looking to make cuts from 1% of the entire bill seems a little pointless to me especially when tax avoidance costs the country more than the entire welfare bill (including the billions spent on pensions) does.

The wrong people are being demonised.

I think you need to go after those who force people to be on benefits, ie employers who won't pay their workers enough to live off and expect the taxpayer to fund their massive profits.

I don’t understand who this is supposed to be targeting. If it’s (the very small percentage of) people who game the system and commit fraud to get their benefits then how does this help? For example, if they’re claiming to be disabled to get benefits they don’t need (again, very very few pull this off, it’s hard enough to claim when you actually ARE disabled and need the help) then they won’t get caught by your proposed system as you’re making an exemption for disabled people.

If it’s people claiming long-term jobseekers’ allowance then how do they balance their mandatory litter-picking/toilet cleaning/whatever with all the jobseeking they’re supposed to be doing? I’ve seen highly-skilled and qualified friends take as long as two years to find a new job after redundancy. Job-hunting was a full-time job in itself, not to mention the mental and emotional stress they went through with it all. You want people sweeping streets to ‘earn’ their jobseekers’ allowance while they’re going through that?

I don’t understand what problem you’re actually trying to solve or who you’re targeting.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 the reason EU national are able to be net contributors at all levels is that all their education and healthcare have already been paid for by their country of birth, so they start with a net clean slate in the UK. It really is that simple.

Rates of familial breakdown are really not that much higher in the UK than elsewhere in the EU and started in the 60s pretty much everywhere - the UK is not unique.

Is the current situation sustainable? Well, given that the majority of benefits paid out go out in the form of pensions, we'd have to look at that. We have an ageing population. And now that we have shut our doors to a young workforce on our doorstep, we get to reap what we've sown.

Chasing a small number of dodgy benefit claimants isn't going to make a dent in the UK's self-inflicted economic issues.

So you don't want to pay for people who become ill through no fault of your own? What a lovely person you are, so much compassion, empathy and human decency.

I don't agree I live with an E-bloc migrant even now with a professional role she still likes money. For this reason, she still has 2 jobs. The drive and work ethic are to give value. It's the only value they have as a stranger to our country.
Work ethic-they value the opportunity this country affords them. They are more diligent, punctual, persistent, reliable, respectful, and cooperative. They will work long hours without flagging and are willing to operate in physically demanding, uncomfortable, or dangerous conditions and to perform boring and repetitive tasks. Immigrants are helpful and loyal to their employers. They have fewer complaints about working conditions and act less 'entitled'.

We on the other hand with empathy and kindness have inadvertently encouraged poor choices, this is now embedded. The neighbor's daughter has just left school. Pregnant to a relative stranger at 17. How foolish and how much of an impediment is that?
It's just poor life choices.

I don't agree I live with an E-bloc migrant even now with a professional role she still likes money. For this reason, she still has 2 jobs. The drive and work ethic are to give value. It's the only value they have as a stranger to our country.

Wow. How offensive and patronising is that? EU migrants are only here because they like money and the only value they have are their drive and their work ethic. So their skills, their experience, their professional qualifications, their ability to speak foreign languages - none of that brings any value to the UK. And of course they only do the scut work.

I'm an EU immigrant. Been here 25 years now. No, I have never worked 2 jobs, just the one, thanks. I'm not money obsessed and the work I do is graduate level because like many EU immigrants, I have a degree. Do you really believe I'm an unusual case and that the majority of EU migrants are just here to do the low paid shit jobs?

And your neighbour's DD is just one case study. For every British young person like her, there are many who have worked hard and done well in school, who have gone on to be productive members of society. Her situation is nothing to do with people showing human decency to people who fall on hard times. Do you really think that being harsh on people who develop life changing illnesses or who have life changing accidents does any good at all?

You really are the worst kind of Tory.

Every generation thinks that the generations after them are lazy/getting worse/losing morals blah blah blah. It’s tedious. Nothing makes you feel ‘old’ quite like looking down on those younger than you.

Teen pregnancies have always been a thing. Knowing one pregnant teenager doesn’t prove anything about society at large. And teen parents aren’t lost to society forever or incapable of ever achieving anything else with their lives (if they wish to). I know someone who had a baby at 16 in the 70s had a few more over the next few years, then went to uni in her 30s and got her BA, MA and PhD in quick succession and became a very successful professor and a world expert in her field I her 40s. She’s now retired with a few brilliant books under her belt, has undoubtedly made her mark on the world, and spends her time travelling around the country visiting all her wonderful children and grandchildren. Sounds like a pretty good life to me but there are plenty here who would probably write her life off as a failure for committing the unthinkable sin of daring to become a teen mum.

@FirewomanSam

same as it ever was

www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171003-proof-that-people-have-always-complained-about-young-adults

I think this can be really complex. And for some people they might not be able to get enough of an income working to pay the bills especially now with the cost of housing so high. So some people are forced into a benefits trap. I think you need to look at the reasons why people aren't working, might be they live rurally with poor transport links to get to employment but couldn't earn enough to afford a car. Might be they grew up in care without learning the resilience and stamina of watching their parents going out to work or maybe they have low self esteem and don't feel like they'd manage well in a work environment, they may have convictions from late teenage years that make it hard for them to find employment or may struggle academically and don't have essential skills qualifications. They may be from another country and the qualifications they do have aren't counted here so they need to figure out how to retrain. I think the majority of people who are on benefits and are able to work do work some hours as other posters have mentioned but there barriers holding the others back that need addressed first.

Yanbu. Benefits are too generous. If they are reduced then unfilled vacancies will be filled as people won't get paid to sit at home.

People should be expected to work full time too, unless they can afford to work part time without being subsidised by the state.

It's not ethical to take money from those who work and give to those who don't want to.

Most. People.On. Benefits. Work.

I do budgeting work with young people on benefits. Let me tell you sometimes I struggle to make the maths work to keep food in their cupboards so saying benefits are too generous is ridiculous. Most people on benefits work to some extent and the thing you should be mad at is why we are all getting screwed over with insane living costs without wage increases and job security to go with it. All you need to do is look at the statistics foodbanks across the board are advising. They've had an insane increase in low wage full time working people who cannot feed their children anymore. If someone works full time on minimum wage how are they expected to afford to pay £750 on rent for a small house in an estate. Because that's the going rate at the moment in the area I work in and the houses are not in great nick and the area is really troubled. People are being forced out of work because of years of austerity and now a recession, challenge that instead!

I do not want to pay for your family or your problems

I'll refrain from saying what I think of that @Hrpuffnstuff1 as I dont fancy being banned.