To think the able bodied / mind/ non carer/ non low wage s worker on benefits, benefit population that claim benefits should contribute somehow to the community/ get the money for WORK .

[Crikeymaccrikey]

Yes this may be costly to set up such as enhanced dbs checks etc.

I feel that this would both give a purpose and a contribution. And lead to jobs possibly/ develop cv / show work ethic.

In addition , it may stop the resentment and the benefit bashing if the claimants are seen to be contributing to society.

This is not necessarily a tory notion.
Karl Marxs idea about each to ones own ability... encompasses this idea of people working together for the whole of society accordi ng to ability. A quick google implies this is actually a socilaist idea of all doing what they can . This is what i am suggesting.

And before anyone says they would be pushed into things.. maybe there could be a choice of ways to contribute ,like on a data base.

Also, I am a cleaner myself. I literally clean poo off loos. I do not feel less worthy than others . I do the job because I can no longer work in my profession , as I get older, ( burnt out nhs) and see nothing but value in my ( ? Seen as some,lowly work). It gives me structure, a decent wage, and I contribute. All good. No shame in doing a good job , whatever that job if it is in my ability.

How can this idea, properly managed be other than reasonable. ?

On previous schemes people have had to work full time hours for Job Seekers money.

My niece had to work split shifts (it was a childcare place so some hours in the morning every day, some afternoon/evening hours every day and midday hours some days) for JSA. Which was less than full amount because she was only 19. She even got sanctioned one week for missing an afternoon to go for a job interview elsewhere.

It’s disgusting that big companies (Tesco, Topman, Wetherspoons, YMCA) basically had free workers for slave labour rates at the cost of the taxpayer.

Maybe I’ve just been unfortunate in the types of people I’ve come across in my life then, because I can 100% say they are lazy and liars.

@JustLyra previous schemes maybe, but does that exist now?

I can’t imagine anyone working for less than minimum wage today- unless they’re working illegally.

How much do people who dont do her job actually know about her reality... how do you actually know .

I for one, have done applications for DLA for DD1. In the end, it took a benefits advisor, employed by our County Council to threaten the DWP with an appeal to the Tribunal to get them to agree, that DD1 was entitled to DLA at the highest rate for care and mobility - which I as a graduate professional could not do!

So if it takes a benefits advisor to get the DWP come to the correct decision, how many other people, making legitimate claims for their disabled children have been turned down, and they’ve given up; because they are too ground down and exhausted by their caring responsibilities to keep fighting the DWP? Also some people believe what the authorities tell them, because they believe that public sector officials act fairly and in their best interests?

Years later, DD1 had a Motability car. Motability wrote to me, to say we had to return the car in 2 weeks, because the DWP hadn’t paid them for seven months. This was the first I knew of it! I rang the DWP to ask what was going on? They said as DD1 was living in a hospital (a care home actually), she wasn’t entitled to DLA mobility! When I asked where in the law, it said that, they told me to look it up myself! I did and found that the Court of Appeal had determined that a young person, living in a care home was entitled to DLA mobility. I rang the DWP and quoted this case - they said “Oh yes, that case changes everything!” They reinstated DD1’s DLA that afternoon and paid the arrears to Motability!

So, why if the DWP knew about this case, did they tell me DD1 wasn’t entitled to DLA, when she was? People should be able to rely on the DWP to know the law! I’ve spent 40 years studying the law, so I understood the relevance of a decision by the Court of Appeal - but not everyone knows how to look up the law!

I applied for ESA for DD1. I had to provide a sick note for her for the DWP. The GP wrote a sick note for 52 weeks, saying DD1 would never be able to work. After 6 months, I had had no response from the DWP, so I rang them up. They said they didn’t accept 52 week sick notes. I asked where in the law, it said that - and if so, they should have written to tell me; as they hadn’t, it took was a clear case of maladministration. They accepted the sick note after all. They put her in the assessment group. Every month, I rang up to ask if they had opened a file for her - they didn’t every month, until I threatened a formal complaint! A year later, they put her in the support group; but I had to threaten another formal complaint to get the two years arrears of £7,000 paid!

Two years ago, they sent me the forms to renew her ESA. It took me two days to fill in the form, and another day to photocopy all the professional reports, social services assessments, etc as evidence - for DD1 deemed to need 1:1 care all her waking hours in a specialist care home, with a medical centre on-site, funded by NHS Continuing Healthcare (which the NHS does not hand out in packets of cornflakes)! DD is like a 2 year old with anterograde amnesia, who could die at any time. She can’t even ask me what is for lunch, because she can’t remember what the word for lunch is - she just says “The thingy, the thingy…..?” We have no idea what she is talking about! It is ludicrous to think she could ever work?

So, given the DWP have consistently tried to deny DD1 benefits at every opportunity, why does anybody think the DWP can be trusted to get anything right - and yet a pp would consign disabled people to a workhouse, because they don’t have the wherewithal or the energy or the time to fight the DWP’s judgments?

I’ve been out of the loop for the last 3/4 years so I’m not sure. it’s only a few years since my niece was on that scheme so it’s not an ancient relic.

Its worrying so many people think it’s acceptable to have people working for way below minimum wage.

@Dotjones
Now, being German, what does that idea remind me off? (We can't drop history at school.)

You're on dangerous ground assuming I claim benefits, sweetheart...

@pointythings ..Nope I’m not. No where did I say YOU personally.. I said certain benefits claimants. But YOUR attitude about such people are one of the reasons why this country is so shit!

@Patsy400 I would argue that it is your attitude that is the problem here. You and your kind have been shown over and over again why your proposals for punishing the poor will have no effect. Yes, there are people who are milking the system - they are a minority and the evidence shows that. Your local anecdotes are meaningless on a population level.

More benefit money is lost through error on the government side and goes unclaimed than is lost through fraud. So maybe focus on addressing that first?

And when it costs more money to pursue the minority who commit fraud than is recouped by that pursuit that shows that this isn't about fiscal prudence - it's about vengeance. Innocent people get caught up in that. The success rate of appeals shows that the DWP gets it wrong incredibly often. If my decisions at work were overturned in 60+% of cases, I would be sacked!

This country is shit because employers won't pay a wage people can live on. This country is shit because its government treats people who have difficulties like criminals and thieves. This country is shit because people like you want their government to behave like this.

@pointythings your entitled to your opinion.
I don’t think it’s acceptable to let people get away with benefit fraud. We clearly have different morals.

@Patsy400 under the current regime, too many completely blameless people are getting punished. It's akin to the police arresting 100 people, 2 of which have definitely committed a crime. But the police can't work out which 2, so they shoot all 100. That's pretty much how the numbers stack up in benefit fraud.

If you're OK with innocent people being put through hell by the DWP to catch a tiny number of fraudsters, maybe you should be looking at your morals?

If anything is ruining this country it's the easily biased people that lack the ability to think beyond what the Tories are telling them.
The ones that fall so easily for the misdirection tactics.
The ones that believed the 350m a week for the NHS was coming.. the ones that believed 30 new hospitals are coming..

The ones that are so easily biased and hateful they'll happily follow the government and demonise whomever the government tells them are the bad guys..

One week it'll be the poor.. next week it'll be the immigrants 'tekking err jerbs'.. then the EU..
The real bad guys are the ones that are leading the easily led so astray..

And yet the tories have been in charge for the last 12 years.. so I’m not the only one who thinks the benefits system needs a reform.

Just because I don’t share your views doesn’t mean I’m unreasonable- I haven’t once said I don’t think people in genuine circumstances shouldn’t be helped or supported. I’m on about people fraudulently claiming WHICH IS ILLEGAL so not sure why you would want to defend them or accept it.
As usual no one bothers to address the original post.

The fact that the Tories keep getting voted in is in part due to the electoral system and in part due to a nasty streak in large parts of the electorate - people who don't vote for everyone to be better off, but for others to be worse off.

We all know benefits fraud is illegal. Where we differ is in our approach: You don't care how many innocent people get caught up in DWP investigations and are put through hell, as long as the tiny number of real fraudsters get caught. Never mind that the investigations cost more than the original fraud did, punishment must happen, no matter how many innocent people suffer in the process.

Lots of things are illegal - lying to Parliament, for instance. But apparently that's OK to a lot of people.

The Tories have been in power, you're right, that's not the glorious championing you should be doing though. It just means that there's millions in the country that are brainless and moronic enough to believe the bollocks pumped out by the Tories.

Like UC and telling people there's millions defrauding and claiming that shouldn't and "grr they is teckkon ur muney.. dunt it mek u angri?"
It's been shown over and over that benefit fraud and disability fraud are miniscule and cost the economy very very little in the grand scheme. But the Tories conviced the easily convinced that there's millions of em..

"Ere watch benefit street, luk at all em gerrin ur money"

Then of course the immigrants were teckkon jobs, so they had to be controlled.. and EU was at fault, and grr EU teckin ur money.. and the easily convinced were convinced by bus slogans to vote out and "Get control back"

But, whatever the case, whilst people hate others based on lies fed to them by those in power, the Tories will flourish.

Basically.
Yes there's miniscule amount of fraud.
Tories used it to whip up anger against the poor.
Idiots fell for it, despite fact checks and such proving it nonsense.
Hateful people did no critical thinking or looked at any actual facts.
Just parrot the usual bingo card..

"Eyes down for a full house..."

"Millions never worked"
"Families that none of em work"
"Having kids for benefits."
"They lie and scam pip"
"Flat screen TV and phones"
"Goats"
"I know a person that knows a woman who's husband ain't never worked and they go on loads of holidays"
"Handed a free council house"

HoUsE!!

Not all areas have migrated to UC. Some are still on ESA. See this on the ESA rates 2022:

www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance/what-youll-get

People get £61.05 under 25 or £77 per week over 25, while they are in the assessment group, supposedly 13 weeks (2 years in my daughter’s case); and then if they are over 25 and put in the work related activity group.

DD2 lives in a one bedroom flat here. Her electricity bill is £215 pcm. Anybody who thinks life is cushy on £77 per week, is living in cloud cuckoo land!

Absolutely, not disputing that last part, it’s unforgivable what the tories did surrounding covid, but that’s another issue. And you’re very wrong I absolutely do care about the real suffers of true poverty- I have first hand experience of this, many years ago now, but I haven’t forgotten.
However in my eyes it’s still not acceptable to brush( benefit fraud)it under the carpet, Just because it more hassle to deal with. All that does is give a green light to those minorities that do choose to scam the system. Of course they should be punished- if 100 people go into a shop and one of them shoplifts, would you just turn a blind eye because 99 customers were honest and did pay.

Why would innocent people suffer from investigations and lose benefits if they are telling the truth? I’m assuming PIP is like the old incapacity benefits.

You sound like you’ve had a bad experience of getting benefits you need, either for yourself or someone else, if so, maybe understandable that you feel particularly passionate about the issue.

if 100 people go into a shop and one of them shoplifts, would you just turn a blind eye because 99 customers were honest and did pay.

That's not what is happening. 100 people are being punished because 2 people shoplifted.

How are they being punished- Genuine question?

@TheSummerPalace not sure what you’re getting at- are you saying you’re daughter is unemployed or disabled and living on £77 for two years?

I don’t know what the assessment group means?

The sanctions are terrible and extremely punitive!

Patsy400 People suspected of benefit fraud can be treated as guilty until proven innocent, and have their benefits suspended while they are investigated.

@TheSummerPalace also £215 for electricity is ridiculous for a one bed flat- I have no answer other than I’ll be in the same boat when our fixed rate ends in October

@Thelnebriati well that isn’t right of course. Maybe I’m just being very naive then. If it’s a disability claim don’t independent medical professionals have to do assessments before benefits are rewarded?

I'm disabled and have to have 2 kinds of assessment every 3 years or so despite the fact its a permanent condition.
The term 'medical professional' is very vague, they never know anything about my condition. They write down what I say, someone else makes the assessment. I used to receive DLA, but despite needing a carer for 14 odd hours a week I don't qualify for PIP.