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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Liz Truss says "best to ignore" attention-seeking Nicola Sturgeon

252 replies

BerylBird · 02/08/2022 10:32

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62385757

I'm not Scottish and I don't live in Scotland, but this statement by Liz Truss has made me seethe with rage. AIBU?

I know Nicola Sturgeon is not universally popular in Scotland but, by all measures, the SNP have a sizeable majority in Scotland and like it or not, she is the elected leader of the country, chosen by its population.

How can someone who is vying to be PM of the UK make such a comment as this without alienating, by definition, a majority of Scots? It's a terrible footing to start out on.

It just shows the low regard that she / the Tories have for the "other" nations of the UK outside of England / Westminster. If ever there was a great advert for independence for Scotland (or Wales, or reunification of Ireland), surely this is it?

OP posts:
MissHavershamJoinsTinder · 02/08/2022 19:02

Read your History Books, Nicola.

It was James 1 of England and V1 of England who was desperate to take the English throne. His mother wanted that too. So began the binding and it was Scotland who pushed for it.

The Scottish weren't invaded or made to join while they kicked and screamed. Au contraire, you silly sod Nicola.

Ms Truss ain't wrong.

ddl1 · 02/08/2022 19:03

Liz Truss can call anyone else 'attention seeking'???

luckylavender · 02/08/2022 19:05

Really poor taste. Showing her hand early. She's not nearly as clever as she thinks she is. And whatever anyone thinks of Sturgeon she was democratically elected leader. I fear for the future really.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 19:05

MissHavershamJoinsTinder · 02/08/2022 19:02

Read your History Books, Nicola.

It was James 1 of England and V1 of England who was desperate to take the English throne. His mother wanted that too. So began the binding and it was Scotland who pushed for it.

The Scottish weren't invaded or made to join while they kicked and screamed. Au contraire, you silly sod Nicola.

Ms Truss ain't wrong.

I'm fairly certain Nicola Surgeon understands the difference between the Union of the Crowns, and Act of Union, which very definitely did lead to 'kicking and screaming', since most random Scots you could stop in the street are well aware, but carry on...

MissHavershamJoinsTinder · 02/08/2022 19:12

Nope, I don't think poor ol' Nicola understands very much. She 's a Braveheart Wannabe but she's more Mary Hen from Rab C Nesbitt.
Nicola Hen.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 19:18

MissHavershamJoinsTinder · 02/08/2022 19:12

Nope, I don't think poor ol' Nicola understands very much. She 's a Braveheart Wannabe but she's more Mary Hen from Rab C Nesbitt.
Nicola Hen.

I don't think poor ol' Nicola understands very much

On evidence, neither do you, since Independence is about dissolving the Act of Union, not removing the HoS.

Loics · 02/08/2022 19:21

MissHavershamJoinsTinder · 02/08/2022 19:12

Nope, I don't think poor ol' Nicola understands very much. She 's a Braveheart Wannabe but she's more Mary Hen from Rab C Nesbitt.
Nicola Hen.

You might want to check your facts, as another poster mentioned.
Also, I'm not sure if the odd insults are meant to be funny somehow, but I imagine it makes a lot of people skim past the actual points. I rarely take posts into account when they're full of childish insults.

Abhannmor · 02/08/2022 19:24

Unionists do seem to be prisoners of the past , forever droning on about Culloden or Robert the Bruce.

Whereas Scottish voters are fed up with London rule in the here and now. Whether Independence or some federal system is the answer remains to be seen. But Unionists will seem some relevant arguments . Not arcane history or ad hom attacks on whoever is the SNP leader.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 19:25

It's also 'Mary doll', so you can't even insult people without betraying your own ignorance 😝

weescottishwummin · 02/08/2022 19:25

I am very offended and angered by Liz Truss's remarks about Nicola Sturgeon . It feels like a slur on all Scottish people. Between her remarks and the idiot audience clapping and cheering just shows how little she respects our government and the people of Scotland. It's very difficult being the lesser mortals having to accept whatever hand outs the Tory government see fit.

Perime · 02/08/2022 19:26

Everanewbie · 02/08/2022 10:49

I think the context of the remark here is that it was in a response to question about the union and Nicola Sturgeon's attempt to engineer a second referendum.

In isolation, yes the remark isn't great as Nicola Sturgeon, like it or not, is a democratically elected head of a devolved government and in the interest of the efficient running of the UK, it is important to have trust and a certain amount of goodwill between the UK government and the devolved parliaments.

But in the context of a another attempt to engineer some tenuous pretext for another "once in a generation" referendum on Scottish independence, when this matter was decisively and quite finally resolved in 2014, hitting the ignore button is the correct response.

Tenuous pretext - Oh please! We were told Independence meant we would leave the EU and a vote for No meant we would stay. How's that working out?

Liz Truss is the numpty Tory voters deserve her comment failed to recognise that it's not JUST a Nicola Sturgeon want. It might not be everyone but I'd certainly vote to leave the Tory shit show that we keep getting and not voting for.

HarlanPepper · 02/08/2022 19:27

Loics · 02/08/2022 19:21

You might want to check your facts, as another poster mentioned.
Also, I'm not sure if the odd insults are meant to be funny somehow, but I imagine it makes a lot of people skim past the actual points. I rarely take posts into account when they're full of childish insults.

Exactly. I just assume the poster is a smug moron (the worst sort of moron) and move on.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 02/08/2022 19:31

MissHavershamJoinsTinder · 02/08/2022 19:02

Read your History Books, Nicola.

It was James 1 of England and V1 of England who was desperate to take the English throne. His mother wanted that too. So began the binding and it was Scotland who pushed for it.

The Scottish weren't invaded or made to join while they kicked and screamed. Au contraire, you silly sod Nicola.

Ms Truss ain't wrong.

You should probably heed your own advice and pick up a book or two. The act of the union and the union of the crowns were two entirely different events separated by over 100 years.

It's also quite concerning that you think decisions made by a bunch of nobles before the advent of democracy and several centuries ago should have any bearing on democracy today.

With that sort of logic I can only assume you are busy campaigning for the return of much England and Wales to the Roman Empire?

StrychnineInTheSandwiches · 02/08/2022 19:32

Person vying to be PM decides to publicly say she'll ignore the democratically elected leader of one of the countries of the union. How politically unsavvy can you get? Embarrassing stuff. Say it in private, but don't broadcast it, doofus.

Clearly a lot of people on MN cannot stand Nicola Sturgeon so have decided this demonstration of slack-jawed incompetence is okay with them. But it just shows Truss up to be such an amateur.

And that's before we even get on to her disastrous public sector pay cut u-turn.

A good day for Sunak I'd say.

awaynboilyurheid · 02/08/2022 19:58

I don’t feel it’s a slur on all of Scotland, simply on someone who refuses to listen to the results of the referendum, Scotland voted no in a once in a lifetime vote, but NS will not accept it.
I wish we could ignore her and her party too, their time in office has been a disaster for Scotland. .

Mousemat25 · 02/08/2022 19:58

They are both vile idiots who paint an entirely false picture of what could happen if they get their way.

Scotland a successful independent country? Scotland would be an economic basket case for the next 20 years at least. It’s Brexit x 10. You’d have to be totally and utterly off your rocker to think any different. But Nicola is prepared to lie, lie and lie again in the hope that the economically illiterate fall for her nonsense. It’s Noris’s Brexit bud all over again, but the consequences are so much more grave.

and Liz Truss thinks endless tax cuts are what a country whose public services and NHS are on its knees needs. Total and utter insanity!!! Her economics are based on the thoughts of universally derided Patrick Minford, and don’t add up at all.

The Labour Party is our only hope. I despair at Kier Starmers popularity.

DownNative · 02/08/2022 20:01

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 17:39

Not so. If you can point to the available legislation dealing with the devolved powers of Holyrood which states that Parliament can have the ability to hold an independence referendum irrespective of Westminster.....I'm all ears!

It is not in question whether Holyrood has the power to hold referenda. This has already been established thanks to the Referendums (Scotland) Act. What is in question is whether the SG can hold referenda on reserved matters, and whether there is a material difference between holding an advisory versus consultory referendum.

Considering that a purely advisory referendum on the question of the future of the constitution would be just that, advisory, there can not possibly be any reason whatsoever for Westminster to object. It amounts to nothing much more than an expanded opinion poll, which could easily be carried out simply by polling the Scots electorate via a third party. I suspect that the reason Westminster appears to have issues with this is nothing to do with competence, and rather down to the fact that Westminster, the Tory party specifically, have already set a precedent for making advisory referenda absolute and binding.

With regards to a consultory referenda, I'm sure we'll find out where Holyrood stands with regard to this in due course. What the Supreme Court ruled on the SG's involvement in Brexit negotiations is neither here nor there, as this has no relevance to the matter of how one Sovereign component part of what is claimed to be a voluntary partnership extricates itself from an incorporating union. The equivalent case would be the SG challenging the right of Westminster to unilaterally declare an EU referendum in the first place without the consent of the SG, and even then it's not quite the same given that the EU is not an incorporating union in the same sense, or to anything like the degree that the UK is.

The Scots people themselves are sovereign, and as such have a right to dictate their own constitutional future. If Scots can not leave a voluntary union simply by a majority of Scots requesting to do so, then whatever the nature of mechanism preventing that is, it is self-evidently either fundamentally undemocratic and repressive, or the voluntary union is nothing of the sort. The insistence that Scots can only be permitted to declare a wish to leave the union if Westminster consents to this is no more ridiculous than Germany, France, Italy, or any other EU member having ultimate authority over the UK's right to decide whether or not to remain part of the EU.

Considering this sham of being repeatedly told that the union is a voluntary partnership of equals, yet one partner desiring to leave the union first of all requires the permission of another of the partners despite each member being sovereign, I can understand why the SG wishes to test how robust this is via legal process, and also why, if the court finds in favour of the UK government, why then the SG will conduct a GE on the basis of it being a consultory referendum. After all, if you are consistently told something is voluntary, and you are sovereign, but you are simultaneously being held to it contrary to your will, what other course of action is there?

A comprehensive pro-Independence outcome in a GE would not, of course, bring about Independence in and of itself, but this isn't and has never been a matter where it's a case of 'ultimate goal, right now, or nothing at all'. It's another step towards highlighting the fundamental absurdity of the Act of Union, and the repressive nature of a system hell-bent on maintaining it regardless of the fact one member increasingly wishes to leave.

"It is not in question whether Holyrood has the power to hold referenda. This has already been established thanks to the Referendums (Scotland) Act."

I know that and I definitely didn't ask if the Scottish Government and Holyrood has the power to hold a referendum on DEVOLVED issues, i.e., agriculture, healthcare, education, etc.

"What is in question is whether the SG can hold referenda on reserved matters, and whether there is a material difference between holding an advisory versus consultory referendum."

This is what I posed the challenge regarding. Neither Holyrood nor the Scottish Government can hold a referendum on matters they have ZERO power over.

There isn't a constitutional law expert who actually thinks the SNP will win their case in the UK Supreme Court.

"I suspect that the reason Westminster appears to have issues with this is nothing to do with competence, and rather down to the fact that Westminster, the Tory party specifically, have already set a precedent for making advisory referenda absolute and binding."

Your own speculation is irrelevant and certainly doesn't stand up by any means. The legislation is clear - advisory referendums are NOT advisory.

But the Doctrine of Parliamentary Sovereignty at Westminster still holds, so Westminster retains the power to implement it or not. That's why we had a democratic vote by each of our representatives in Westminster regarding this issue. It passed and so the referendum result was implemented.

Had MPs voted against it by a majority, the 2016 referendum would not have been implemented.

Your assertion that "Westminster, the Tory party specifically, have already set a precedent for making advisory referenda absolute and binding" simply does not stand. To argue otherwise is to use circular reasoning.

"What the Supreme Court ruled on the SG's involvement in Brexit negotiations is neither here nor there, as this has no relevance to the matter of how one Sovereign component part of what is claimed to be a voluntary partnership extricates itself from an incorporating union."

Actually, it IS relevant since the Supreme Court ruling demonstrated the devolved administrations were acting ultra vires. And that they are NOT sovereign states which is obvious.

Under international law, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are NOT sovereign states. They are constituent parts.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland IS the sovereign state which was recognised by the EU only conducting negotiations with the UK Government.

Regardless, the SNP are clearly NOT confident they'll prevail against the UK Government in the Supreme Court.

I refer you to international law as it stands in regards to the issue self-determination as well.

"The Scots people themselves are sovereign, and as such have a right to dictate their own constitutional future."

Subject to international law itself as Catalan separatists found out.

"If Scots can not leave a voluntary union simply by a majority of Scots requesting to do so, then whatever the nature of mechanism preventing that is, it is self-evidently either fundamentally undemocratic and repressive, or the voluntary union is nothing of the sort."

Disingenuous argument as this is not reflected in reality. If that were the case, the 2014 referendum wouldn't have happened.

Since the UK Parliament is supreme under our constitution and always has been, it is NOT undemocratic for the UK Parliament and/or Government to say "now is not the time" or "no" to IndyRef2 demands.

The SNP has no right in domestic or international law to IndyRef2 simply because they demand one.

"The insistence that Scots can only be permitted to declare a wish to leave the union if Westminster consents to this is no more ridiculous than Germany, France, Italy, or any other EU member having ultimate authority over the UK's right to decide whether or not to remain part of the EU."

See above.

The comparison with the EU doesn't hold water as its not a country by any means.

Additionally, France explicitly forbids secession in Article 1 of its constitution in relation to French territory:

"France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic."

Germany's constitutional court has ruled in 2017 that it is a violation of the German constitution to allow secession:

"In the Federal Republic of Germany, which is a nation-state based on the constituent power of the German people, states are not ‘masters of the constitution’.

Therefore there is no room under the constitution for individual states to attempt to secede. This violates the constitutional order.”

Likewise, the Spanish constitution states:

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards...."

The United States of America is perhaps the best known example of a state which expressly forbids secession in its constitution:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

And, in Canada, the Canadian Supreme Court ruled:

"It is clear that international law does not specifically grant component parts of sovereign states the legal right to secede unilaterally from their "parent" state."

Literally, Canada can simply say "no" to Quebec and this is perfectly legal in international law.

As you can see, it is in full accordance with international law that the Sovereign national power CAN forbid secession.

The United Kingdom Government and Parliament can say no to the SNP's secessionist demands as often as it likes. This is in full accordance with the international law as agreed globally.

That creates a real dilemma for the SNP who've already noted the EU's response in regards to Spain and Catalonia. Much to the chagrin of Scottish Nationalist separatists.

Whether we like it or not, the UK has agreed to an independence referendum for Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands and Scotland in the last few decades. With the sole exception of Northern Ireland, the UK Government does not have to consent to further independence referendums for these parts of its territory.

International law decrees that demands for secession must be balanced against the right of sovereign states to territorial integrity.

Once again, the European Union is NOT a sovereign state and, therefore, territorial integrity does not apply to it. It does to each individual member state, but crucially each member state cannot dictate to the others in international law as it stands.

Your attempted comparison falls down.

"A comprehensive pro-Independence outcome in a GE would not, of course, bring about Independence in and of itself, but this isn't and has never been a matter where it's a case of 'ultimate goal, right now, or nothing at all'. It's another step towards highlighting the fundamental absurdity of the Act of Union, and the repressive nature of a system hell-bent on maintaining it regardless of the fact one member increasingly wishes to leave."

Except it really wouldn't highlight "the fundamental absurdity of the Act of Union, and the repressive nature of a system".

See the point above about various European as well as non-European states forbidding secession in their constitutions and court rulings. Its fully in compliance with international law whether you like it or not.

Finally, there is no evidence that Scotland "increasingly wishes to leave." If that was so, the SNP would have taken a lot more of the UK GE vote share than they did. It was significantly lower than their highest ever.

The last two polls had 59% and 53% opposed to IndyRef2. Further questioning in these polls reveals the people in Scotland are literally divided over the issue of an appropriate time frame for holding IndyRef2.

This does not correspond to an increased desire for independence.

DownNative · 02/08/2022 20:03

This line "The legislation is clear - advisory referendums are NOT advisory" should say:

"The legislation is clear - advisory referendums are NOT binding."

DownNative · 02/08/2022 20:12

ancientgran · 02/08/2022 18:26

You might think it might be the best explanation, it might even be the best explanation but it doesn't mean it is the correct explanation. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, she said ignore her so I think the best explanation is she meant ignore her. If she didn't mean that she should have been clearer. Someone aspiring to be PM should be able to do that.

The first part of your comment is circular reasoning. Occams Razor is perfectly valid.

Furthermore, you still refuse to quote Truss in full which is what gives us the context of IndyRef2. It's terribly easy to take a snippet of what anyone says out of context and then use it against them whilst refusing to use their full quote.

DownNative · 02/08/2022 20:33

CapMarvel · 02/08/2022 18:19

It was undoubtably on the manifesto of the party which is now in power in Scotland.

To deny that there is mandate for the SNP to persue indyref2 is simply undemocratic and frankly indicative of the fear that most unionists have that they would lose another referendum if it were to take place.

Are you trying suggest it wasn't one of several manifesto pledges?

I hope you understand simply having a manifesto pledge means neither that party will implement it or, in the case of constitutional matters, has the power to do so.

It is not undemocratic for sovereign states, governments and parliaments to say no to or even forbid secession. It's allowed for in international law and doesn't actually mean those states are de facto undemocratic.

You'd be calling a good number of European states undemocratic using flawed logic like that.

The UK itself has granted independence referendums multiple times since 1973. This is not an undemocratic state, but crucially there is nothing in Domestic and international law that states the UK must agree to any and all secessionist demands. Although Northern Ireland is largely an exception, the UK Government and Parliament still retains more control over that than is generally realised. The courts have ruled the UK does not have to spell out the conditions needed trigger a referendum in order to make it easier for Nationalists and Republicans.

Again, this is all in full compliance with domestic and international law.

Finally, are you seriously trying to suggest Sturgeon's "a vote for the SNP is not a vote for another independence referendum" isn't a valid point?

It very much is.

RhannionKPSS · 02/08/2022 20:47

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 18:38

@RhannionKPSS

The SNP were 'in power' for months before the Greens deal came about, and have been continuously since 2007, mainly because the Scots electorate continually return them there.

Interesting that you view democratic process as 'grubby' though. Presumably you are more a fan of FPTP systems where even smaller proportions of the electorate voting for a party can result in enormous majorities, and even less representative governments?

I used the word “ grubby” as the SNP are widely regarded now as Scottish Nonce Party due to the amount of sexual harassment cases which finally being reported on by the press.
Add on to that the money given to the party to be ringfenced for the independence campaign which has “ disappeared “ the drug deaths, ruined education, ferries that are costing far, far more than they should, a “ friend” of Sturgeon who is a trans woman ( without a GRC( being the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre and the ridiculous situation of MSPs thinking that Self ID for children is a good idea, then I think “ grubby” is quite a mild word to use.
Scotland is an embarrassing mess due to mismanagement, dubious dealings & the inadequacy of Sturgeon & her ilk.

coodawoodashooda · 02/08/2022 21:12

RhannionKPSS · 02/08/2022 20:47

I used the word “ grubby” as the SNP are widely regarded now as Scottish Nonce Party due to the amount of sexual harassment cases which finally being reported on by the press.
Add on to that the money given to the party to be ringfenced for the independence campaign which has “ disappeared “ the drug deaths, ruined education, ferries that are costing far, far more than they should, a “ friend” of Sturgeon who is a trans woman ( without a GRC( being the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre and the ridiculous situation of MSPs thinking that Self ID for children is a good idea, then I think “ grubby” is quite a mild word to use.
Scotland is an embarrassing mess due to mismanagement, dubious dealings & the inadequacy of Sturgeon & her ilk.

Well written. I agree

hulahooper2 · 02/08/2022 21:15

I wasn’t an snp supporter but I am now , cheers Liz

underneaththeash · 02/08/2022 21:29

i actually agree with her - she’s a pain in the bloody arse.

derxa · 02/08/2022 21:41

RhannionKPSS · 02/08/2022 20:47

I used the word “ grubby” as the SNP are widely regarded now as Scottish Nonce Party due to the amount of sexual harassment cases which finally being reported on by the press.
Add on to that the money given to the party to be ringfenced for the independence campaign which has “ disappeared “ the drug deaths, ruined education, ferries that are costing far, far more than they should, a “ friend” of Sturgeon who is a trans woman ( without a GRC( being the CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre and the ridiculous situation of MSPs thinking that Self ID for children is a good idea, then I think “ grubby” is quite a mild word to use.
Scotland is an embarrassing mess due to mismanagement, dubious dealings & the inadequacy of Sturgeon & her ilk.

Totally agree. Scandal after scandal. Now that BJ is gone we'll hear more of it in the national press