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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Liz Truss says "best to ignore" attention-seeking Nicola Sturgeon

252 replies

BerylBird · 02/08/2022 10:32

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62385757

I'm not Scottish and I don't live in Scotland, but this statement by Liz Truss has made me seethe with rage. AIBU?

I know Nicola Sturgeon is not universally popular in Scotland but, by all measures, the SNP have a sizeable majority in Scotland and like it or not, she is the elected leader of the country, chosen by its population.

How can someone who is vying to be PM of the UK make such a comment as this without alienating, by definition, a majority of Scots? It's a terrible footing to start out on.

It just shows the low regard that she / the Tories have for the "other" nations of the UK outside of England / Westminster. If ever there was a great advert for independence for Scotland (or Wales, or reunification of Ireland), surely this is it?

OP posts:
XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 16:25

@Anothernamechangeplease

I think you might have misunderstood the point I was making.

We are continually told 'Nicola Sturgeon/The SNP will not respect the result of the 2014 referendum'

Despite this being demonstrably untrue by dint of the fact the SNP formed the SG at the time of the referendum, were the SG the morning after the result, and have formed the SG ever since, and yet Scotland is still very much a component part of the union, it's a claim that is made incessantly. If the SNP had ignored the 2014 result they'd have immediately unilaterally declared independence for Scotland in the aftermath.

My point was, that during the 2014 campaign Scots were repeatedly told by the Better Together campaign that the only way to ensure continued membership of the EU was to vote 'No'. While that's empirically true, many of the people involved in that campaign then set about orchestrating the UK's withdrawal from the EU entirely at odds with what they had promised in 2014 and with Scots 2016 vote in that referendum

Aside from this, many of us will recall the desperation throw of the dice labelled 'The Vow', in which BT wheeled out a Labour back bench MP to promise all sorts of extended Devolution powers which he was in no position whatsoever to implement. The self-same Labour Party, also part of BT, then set about obstructing and impeding every single concession promised in the Smith Commission.

So yeah, it would be nice if 'winning' sides respected referenda. 'Losing' sides are under no such obligation since they are in no position to implement change in any case, yet here we are in a place where that accusation is constantly levelled at a 'losing' side.

MrsIsobelCrawley · 02/08/2022 16:28

"Liz Truss has promised to save £11bn a year by cutting pay for public sector workers — including civil servants, teachers and nurses — outside London and the South-East."

www.ft.com/content/8ab0b5d0-3e9e-4fb4-8448-9f6f26abbfe4

So the plan has been abandoned already?

It speaks volumes for Truss's competency and principles.

Anothernamechangeplease · 02/08/2022 16:38

@XDownwiththissortofthingX , fair enough, I may have misunderstood your point, apologies. (Not sure I totally get what you're saying even now...I think you're saying that the winning side should keep the promises that they made to get people to vote for them???)

DownNative · 02/08/2022 16:39

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 15:38

It's bizarre how in Westminster elections parliamentary majority is invariably cited as mandate, yet in Scotland, the yardstick is vote share.

The people of Scotland voted for a Parliament with limited powers and with the Constitution out of bounds to it. The SNP have about 45% of the vote share, so do not have the numbers to win IndyRef2, let alone hold one.

In 2012, at the time of the Edinburgh Agreement, preference for Scots Indi was polling between 32-38%. SNP also polled 47.7% of the constituency vote in the last SGE, with the pro-indi Green party polling 1.29%, a combined 48.99% of the votes cast. On the Regional side, SNP vote was 40.34%, Green 8.12%, a combined 48.46%. Add in Alba and that total is 50.12% of the Regional vote.

Regardless, the question of numbers is largely immaterial in any case, given that the SNP/Greens form the SG thanks to parliamentary numbers, and therefore are in the position whereby they can act on manifesto pledges. Perhaps you'd rather elections were run on the basis that if a party wins they should have to implement the defeated parties' policies instead?

As for your nonsensical claim that the SNP are attempting to act outwith their competence; the fact that they are currently in the middle of a Supreme Court case precisely to establish exactly where competence begins and ends would rather seem to contradict that.

"It's bizarre how in Westminster elections parliamentary majority is invariably cited as mandate, yet in Scotland, the yardstick is vote share."

A majority of seats in a Westminster GE does not confer any authority with which to change the UK Constitution either. Hence, it's nonsensical of Sturgeon to threaten to turn any future GE into a de facto referendum.

GEs is only about sending Parliamentary representatives to the Westminster Parliament.

The Westminster Parliament remains the Supreme Authority as the UK Supreme Court upheld in regards to the Brexit negotiations which meant Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh had no legal Constitutional right to enter into negotiations whatsoever.

The Constitution is a Reserved Power.

"Regardless, the question of numbers is largely immaterial in any case, given that the SNP/Greens form the SG thanks to parliamentary numbers, and therefore are in the position whereby they can act on manifesto pledges. Perhaps you'd rather elections were run on the basis that if a party wins they should have to implement the defeated parties' policies instead?"

Firstly, you compared a General Election with a Referendum. This is an absurd comparison to make since a GE is strictly about choosing a national and sovereign government. It is NOT about making constitutional changes which is the function of Referenda.

Indeed, Sturgeon herself has had to admit that "a vote for the SNP is not a vote for another referendum". That's a crucial point here.

Sure, the SNP can ask the UK Government for consent via a Section 30 Order to hold a referendum on independence. That's democratic.

But what the SNP cannot do is attempt to bypass the UK Government and the Westminster Parliament by trying to use Holyrood as a means to hold this referendum.

Regarding the Referendums (Scotland) Bill, the Scottish Government's own website states:

"The Bill would only allow for referendums on issues which the Scottish Parliament has responsibility for. These are known as a ‘devolved’ matters."

The powers of the Scottish Parliament is already set out in the available legislation dealing with this.

And constitutional issues is NOT one of them.

Of course, the SNP has been deliberately misleading the people in Scotland over the actual contents of their Referendums (Scotland) Bill. Tut, tut.

"As for your nonsensical claim that the SNP are attempting to act outwith their competence; the fact that they are currently in the middle of a Supreme Court case precisely to establish exactly where competence begins and ends would rather seem to contradict that."

Not so. If you can point to the available legislation dealing with the devolved powers of Holyrood which states that Parliament can have the ability to hold an independence referendum irrespective of Westminster.....I'm all ears!

Bringing a case to the Supreme Court does NOT in and of itself mean there's some ambiguity as to whether the SNP have the power to hold an independence referendum. There's no ambiguity.

All it means is the SNP want to try pushing their agenda in this direction, but they clearly are not remotely confident the UK Supreme Court will rule in their favour.

The SNP thought they were on to a winner regarding Brexit negotiations until the Supreme Court ruled otherwise. Your logic doesn't hold up there as bringing a case doesn't confer legitimacy on your own claim.

Hence, Sturgeon's nonsensical threat to turn every General Election into a de factor referendum. It really wouldn't translate as one by any means. It just sounds desperate.

manlyago · 02/08/2022 16:40

ancientgran · 02/08/2022 16:17

And it's fine for you to say that. For someone aiming to be the British PM it isn't appropriate at all. If I was Scottish I'd be furious and as someone from N.Ireland I don't like that "what we'll do for Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland" as if we are some poor relation to be thrown scraps to keep us quiet.

Actually LT was saying it in the context of another referendum so I think it’s fine to say ignore her! If she was saying it generally then I wouldn’t agree, as much as I can’t stand NS.

I think context is key here.

Anothernamechangeplease · 02/08/2022 16:40

MrsIsobelCrawley · 02/08/2022 16:28

"Liz Truss has promised to save £11bn a year by cutting pay for public sector workers — including civil servants, teachers and nurses — outside London and the South-East."

www.ft.com/content/8ab0b5d0-3e9e-4fb4-8448-9f6f26abbfe4

So the plan has been abandoned already?

It speaks volumes for Truss's competency and principles.

So if she isn't going to save that £11billion after all, I guess she's going to have to find another way of paying for her tax cuts?

Austerity on steroids here we come...

ajandjjmum · 02/08/2022 16:43

Friffle · 02/08/2022 11:45

she's so utterly clueless that I almost feel sorry for her. she'll blurt out any old nonsense in a desperate attempt to get head pats from her party members.

You are aware that Liz Truss is a 'Northern pleb'?

JocelynBurnell · 02/08/2022 16:45

Anothernamechangeplease · 02/08/2022 16:40

So if she isn't going to save that £11billion after all, I guess she's going to have to find another way of paying for her tax cuts?

Austerity on steroids here we come...

An even speedier unravelling of the NHS by the sounds of it.

It will need to be gone as the price the UK will pay to get a trade deal with the US.

Anothernamechangeplease · 02/08/2022 16:45

manlyago · 02/08/2022 16:40

Actually LT was saying it in the context of another referendum so I think it’s fine to say ignore her! If she was saying it generally then I wouldn’t agree, as much as I can’t stand NS.

I think context is key here.

The point is, she should have been more judicious in her choice of words.

Perhaps she meant that Nicola Sturgeon's calls for a second referendum should be ignored, but what she said was that Nicola Sturgeon herself should be ignored.

As someone who is currently our foreign secretary, aspiring to be our Prime Minister, it worries me that she is so careless with her choice of words.

If it was Bob down the street making that kind of comment, then yes, I'd be happy to consider the context of any remarks and give him the benefit of the doubt, but this is someone who wants to represent our country on the world stage. I expect her to choose her words wisely.

DownNative · 02/08/2022 16:46

As expected, you've not been able to demonstrate with evidence that the context wasn't the constitution.

I just showed you it was and outlined how Sturgeon has absolutely no power on that issue.

Occams Razor - "getting unnecessary information out of the way is the fastest way to the truth or to the best explanation."

The best explanation was it was in context of the constitution. Something no First Minister has any power over which is entirely democratic.

DownNative · 02/08/2022 16:47

My previous post is to @ancientgran .

Friffle · 02/08/2022 16:57

ajandjjmum · 02/08/2022 16:43

You are aware that Liz Truss is a 'Northern pleb'?

Fully aware.

And?

JustABloodyMinute · 02/08/2022 16:58

Can only assume either Truss wants Scotland to be independent, or she is as stupid as people say she is. She's handed the SNP a gift here.

coodawoodashooda · 02/08/2022 16:58

VivaMazVegas · 02/08/2022 10:43

She’s right about Sturgeon though, plenty of Scots agree.

Yes and I am one of them. Can't stand Sturgeon. Wouldn't be stupid enough to say it on TV though.

2bazookas · 02/08/2022 17:02

Liz Truss has YET AGAIN demonstrated such very poor political nous and sheer bad judgement, she's clearly unfit for the job of PM.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 17:02

Anothernamechangeplease · 02/08/2022 16:38

@XDownwiththissortofthingX , fair enough, I may have misunderstood your point, apologies. (Not sure I totally get what you're saying even now...I think you're saying that the winning side should keep the promises that they made to get people to vote for them???)

Indeed

SaintHelena · 02/08/2022 17:06

I think LT makes a good point - the stats haven't changed - independence was and still is about 50:50.
But the weetartan terrier suddenly decides Scots are demanding a second ref - utter bollox - good on calling her out.

CapMarvel · 02/08/2022 17:08

SaintHelena · 02/08/2022 17:06

I think LT makes a good point - the stats haven't changed - independence was and still is about 50:50.
But the weetartan terrier suddenly decides Scots are demanding a second ref - utter bollox - good on calling her out.

The SNP featured indyref2 front and centre in their scottish government manifesto.

Along with the greens - also pro-independence - they hold a majority.

You understand how representative democracy works, right?

DownNative · 02/08/2022 17:38

CapMarvel · 02/08/2022 17:08

The SNP featured indyref2 front and centre in their scottish government manifesto.

Along with the greens - also pro-independence - they hold a majority.

You understand how representative democracy works, right?

It was just one of several manifesto pledges by the SNP and Sturgeon's own admission that "a vote for the SNP is not a vote for another independence referendum" still follows her around.

For good reason.

Holyrood does not have the legal responsibility or powers to hold an independence referendum. Simple as that.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 17:39

Not so. If you can point to the available legislation dealing with the devolved powers of Holyrood which states that Parliament can have the ability to hold an independence referendum irrespective of Westminster.....I'm all ears!

It is not in question whether Holyrood has the power to hold referenda. This has already been established thanks to the Referendums (Scotland) Act. What is in question is whether the SG can hold referenda on reserved matters, and whether there is a material difference between holding an advisory versus consultory referendum.

Considering that a purely advisory referendum on the question of the future of the constitution would be just that, advisory, there can not possibly be any reason whatsoever for Westminster to object. It amounts to nothing much more than an expanded opinion poll, which could easily be carried out simply by polling the Scots electorate via a third party. I suspect that the reason Westminster appears to have issues with this is nothing to do with competence, and rather down to the fact that Westminster, the Tory party specifically, have already set a precedent for making advisory referenda absolute and binding.

With regards to a consultory referenda, I'm sure we'll find out where Holyrood stands with regard to this in due course. What the Supreme Court ruled on the SG's involvement in Brexit negotiations is neither here nor there, as this has no relevance to the matter of how one Sovereign component part of what is claimed to be a voluntary partnership extricates itself from an incorporating union. The equivalent case would be the SG challenging the right of Westminster to unilaterally declare an EU referendum in the first place without the consent of the SG, and even then it's not quite the same given that the EU is not an incorporating union in the same sense, or to anything like the degree that the UK is.

The Scots people themselves are sovereign, and as such have a right to dictate their own constitutional future. If Scots can not leave a voluntary union simply by a majority of Scots requesting to do so, then whatever the nature of mechanism preventing that is, it is self-evidently either fundamentally undemocratic and repressive, or the voluntary union is nothing of the sort. The insistence that Scots can only be permitted to declare a wish to leave the union if Westminster consents to this is no more ridiculous than Germany, France, Italy, or any other EU member having ultimate authority over the UK's right to decide whether or not to remain part of the EU.

Considering this sham of being repeatedly told that the union is a voluntary partnership of equals, yet one partner desiring to leave the union first of all requires the permission of another of the partners despite each member being sovereign, I can understand why the SG wishes to test how robust this is via legal process, and also why, if the court finds in favour of the UK government, why then the SG will conduct a GE on the basis of it being a consultory referendum. After all, if you are consistently told something is voluntary, and you are sovereign, but you are simultaneously being held to it contrary to your will, what other course of action is there?

A comprehensive pro-Independence outcome in a GE would not, of course, bring about Independence in and of itself, but this isn't and has never been a matter where it's a case of 'ultimate goal, right now, or nothing at all'. It's another step towards highlighting the fundamental absurdity of the Act of Union, and the repressive nature of a system hell-bent on maintaining it regardless of the fact one member increasingly wishes to leave.

boatahoy · 02/08/2022 17:40

I don't understand why so many people think it's right for Liz Truss to say, that she will ignore the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland.

DownNative · 02/08/2022 17:43

SaintHelena · 02/08/2022 17:06

I think LT makes a good point - the stats haven't changed - independence was and still is about 50:50.
But the weetartan terrier suddenly decides Scots are demanding a second ref - utter bollox - good on calling her out.

The last two polls asking "Do you support or oppose a second referendum on Scottish independence?" showed 59% and 53% respectively opposed to it.

j712adrian · 02/08/2022 17:58

Non-elected non-leader with no standing says democratically elected senior politician has no standing.

Go figure.

ApresGoldRush · 02/08/2022 18:01

I'm English, and it's probably worth clarifying that attitude is very prevalent here, and it extends beyond NS and the SNP in general. You're part of the UK, with all it's benefits to you financially, so get over it.

It's a democracy, and as such will essentially be governed by the areas of the largest population. That's how it works.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 18:02

DownNative · 02/08/2022 17:43

The last two polls asking "Do you support or oppose a second referendum on Scottish independence?" showed 59% and 53% respectively opposed to it.

Which two polls?

I just polled the room where I am, and it's overwhelmingly in favour.

Polls mean nothing, and invariably find what those commissioning them want them to find.

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