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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Liz Truss says "best to ignore" attention-seeking Nicola Sturgeon

252 replies

BerylBird · 02/08/2022 10:32

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62385757

I'm not Scottish and I don't live in Scotland, but this statement by Liz Truss has made me seethe with rage. AIBU?

I know Nicola Sturgeon is not universally popular in Scotland but, by all measures, the SNP have a sizeable majority in Scotland and like it or not, she is the elected leader of the country, chosen by its population.

How can someone who is vying to be PM of the UK make such a comment as this without alienating, by definition, a majority of Scots? It's a terrible footing to start out on.

It just shows the low regard that she / the Tories have for the "other" nations of the UK outside of England / Westminster. If ever there was a great advert for independence for Scotland (or Wales, or reunification of Ireland), surely this is it?

OP posts:
SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 02/08/2022 18:08

I think the UK establishment is playing with fire here. Truss is a red herring: she's tactless, it's her thing. But her comments about ignoring Nicola Sturgeon are symptomatic of a serious, ongoing problem.

Johnson has said worse, as did Mordaunt and Badenoch in the larger leadership contest. Sunak has publically changed his position from supporting self-determination to opposing it in principle. No one in the Con leadership race has respected the UN-recognised principle of self-determination of peoples. Theresa May's "now is not the time" was controversial in 2017, but looks positively liberal by today's Unionist standards.

Labour's no better. In their last leadership race Lisa Nandy suggested that the UK should use Spain as a model of how to deal with Scottish separatism (!!!!!!!) and Jess Phillips replied to a question about Scottish separatism on national TV by throwing up her hands and exclaiming "I don't know what they're doing up there!"

I understand Truss's annoyance with Sturgeon as an individual and as a politican. Some Scots share it, both those who support independence in principle or in reality and those who pray it doesn't happen. But, crucially, the next UK PM can't just ignore Sturgeon. She IS FM. Her party won and holds the largest number of seats at Holyrood, and - as Stugeon herself will point out if she hasn't already - she was also (re)elected as FM by a majority of MSPs of all parties.

Scots do have the right to self-determination, as do all national groups. People of good faith and of many parties and none want independence and work for it (or can be persuaded to do). Many who don't want independence now (and perhaps not ever) still respect the principle that Scotland has the right to decide.

A sensible unionist leader would make the argument that there is not enough appetite among Scottish voters for a referendum to result in a vote to separate, and therefore the expense and disruption of a second referendum is not justified now but can be considered if circumstances change. And in the meantime, make the positive case for the union - NOT as a "one size fits all", the UK does what England wants because England has a relatively huge population so "democratically" gets to choose. Support the FM, the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament in devolved matters and listen to Scottish MPs (of all parties) in reserved matters.

"What we need to do is show the people of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales what we're delivering for them and making sure that all of our government policies apply right across the United Kingdom."

This, from Truss, is decent in principle but stated badly. It sounds like she either doesn't understand the Scottish devolution settlement or wants to erode or reverse it. That will go down like a lump of sick in Scotland, where only the most headbanging Tories (and the Scottish politics experts telecommuting from Novosibirsk and Khavarovsk) oppose devolution and want to abolish the Scottish Parliament.

After what we've seen over the last eight years, I don't rule out the idea that this is all political theatre. The UK PM blusters against Scottish self-determination, stirring opposition in Scotland. When the inevitable UK election comes more Scots vote for parties that clearly priorities the needs of their constituents in Scotland (which at the moment, logically, are also independence-supporting parties). Sturgeon announces that the UK election will be a plebescite for a second independence referendum; if pro-indy parties gain a majority of the Scottish seats in the HOC, independence will be pursued with or without Westminster. (Ian Blackford already said this in the HoC: Scots cannot vote for either Cons or Labour as both fundamentally oppose Scotland's interests regarding a desired future in the EU and/or the European Single Market).

Imagine for a moment that a second referendum is held in 2023. One likely scenario: all sides behave controversially, turnout is lower than ideal, "Yes" narrowly loses. Sturgeon complains about the conduct of the Unionist parties/"No" campaign and strengthens her party's position in both Scotland and in the UK Parliament, but now she's completely off the hook for delivering independence, with its inevitabllity of shoving her party out of power. And the UK gets to "keep" Scotland.

The UK establishment may be 100% assured that independence is impossible with Sturgeon in place, but even Tito and Mugabe (still waiting, Putin) eventually were replaced. Power in Scotland belongs not to any government, parliament, or monarch, and certainly not to any party or cause or individual. Power in Scotland belongs to the Scottish people. Always did, always will. Be careful who you piss off.

cockandball · 02/08/2022 18:10

It's funny... But it shouldn't have been said

CapMarvel · 02/08/2022 18:17

ApresGoldRush · 02/08/2022 18:01

I'm English, and it's probably worth clarifying that attitude is very prevalent here, and it extends beyond NS and the SNP in general. You're part of the UK, with all it's benefits to you financially, so get over it.

It's a democracy, and as such will essentially be governed by the areas of the largest population. That's how it works.

Or, on the other hand, it's a democracy so Scotland has the right to self determination and the right to leave a toxic union which has long stopped being beneficial.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 18:17

where only the most headbanging Tories

This implies there is some other type of Tory

CapMarvel · 02/08/2022 18:19

DownNative · 02/08/2022 17:38

It was just one of several manifesto pledges by the SNP and Sturgeon's own admission that "a vote for the SNP is not a vote for another independence referendum" still follows her around.

For good reason.

Holyrood does not have the legal responsibility or powers to hold an independence referendum. Simple as that.

It was undoubtably on the manifesto of the party which is now in power in Scotland.

To deny that there is mandate for the SNP to persue indyref2 is simply undemocratic and frankly indicative of the fear that most unionists have that they would lose another referendum if it were to take place.

ancientgran · 02/08/2022 18:21

manlyago · 02/08/2022 16:40

Actually LT was saying it in the context of another referendum so I think it’s fine to say ignore her! If she was saying it generally then I wouldn’t agree, as much as I can’t stand NS.

I think context is key here.

I disagree, she did not make it clear context or no context. She might have just been referring to it int he context of the referendum but she could equally have meant exactly what she said.

Pumperthepumper · 02/08/2022 18:21

ApresGoldRush · 02/08/2022 18:01

I'm English, and it's probably worth clarifying that attitude is very prevalent here, and it extends beyond NS and the SNP in general. You're part of the UK, with all it's benefits to you financially, so get over it.

It's a democracy, and as such will essentially be governed by the areas of the largest population. That's how it works.

It’s not really though, you also benefit from us. And our votes don’t count, so being ignored is a sore point. Not to mention the complete unprofessionalism of a bog-standard MP saying this about the leader of an actual country. You need to get over it too.

Loics · 02/08/2022 18:26

Pumperthepumper · 02/08/2022 18:21

It’s not really though, you also benefit from us. And our votes don’t count, so being ignored is a sore point. Not to mention the complete unprofessionalism of a bog-standard MP saying this about the leader of an actual country. You need to get over it too.

I live in England, and I wish Scotland luck in hopefully leaving this sinking ship of a union.

VisionSystem · 02/08/2022 18:26

i would not read too much into the statement. Politicians will always say "not nice" things about political opponents , it's totally normal. Same as if she'd said it about LibDems, or Labour, etc.

As an English person, I find it really hard to envisage Scottish independence. The reality is the countries are so intertwined economically, and the potential energy sources with respect to wind/tide, to follow on the bonus of the oil which helped the whole UK for 2 generations now (one the other hand I'd happily ditch the Welsh and NI basket cases).

ancientgran · 02/08/2022 18:26

DownNative · 02/08/2022 16:46

As expected, you've not been able to demonstrate with evidence that the context wasn't the constitution.

I just showed you it was and outlined how Sturgeon has absolutely no power on that issue.

Occams Razor - "getting unnecessary information out of the way is the fastest way to the truth or to the best explanation."

The best explanation was it was in context of the constitution. Something no First Minister has any power over which is entirely democratic.

You might think it might be the best explanation, it might even be the best explanation but it doesn't mean it is the correct explanation. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, she said ignore her so I think the best explanation is she meant ignore her. If she didn't mean that she should have been clearer. Someone aspiring to be PM should be able to do that.

Pumperthepumper · 02/08/2022 18:27

I don’t want Scotland to leave the union, but it gets harder and harder to argue that we shouldn’t.

Loics · 02/08/2022 18:27

Sorry @Pumperthepumper I agree with you, just wanted to show that not everyone in England takes the ignorant "but you live off us! Get over it! stomps feet" attitude.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 18:28

@SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey

Good post overall, but I'd point out that this bit -

A sensible unionist leader would make the argument that there is not enough appetite among Scottish voters for a referendum to result in a vote to separate, and therefore the expense and disruption of a second referendum is not justified now but can be considered if circumstances change. And in the meantime, make the positive case for the union

Appears to describe a scenario whereby unionist leaders should be 'sensible' by waiting until such time as there is clearly an overwhelming majority of Scots demanding a second Ref. Aside from the fact that Scots leaders already have all the mandate they require to demand Indi Ref2, I'd suggest that delaying on the part of union leaders would be supremely foolhardy. Given that unionists oppose anything and everything that remotely hints at Scots self-determination with an almost pathological zeal, I'd suggest that numbers showing the Scots population split down the middle on the matter as as good as it's likely to get, as I think it's also a fair indicator that the debate over the outcome of the Ref would also be starting from a fairly even position.

If UK leaders do wait until such time there are, say, 60-65% of Scots demanding a Ref, I'd say that the horse has well and truly bolted by that point, and the Ref would be nothing much more than a formality. Of course, if politicians were being fundamentally honest then perceived outcome would not be a determining factor in their obligation to facilitate democratic process in the first place, but still, the longer Indi Ref is put off the more I think it will drive Scots toward a pro-Indi outcome.

I genuinely think pro-union politicians could bury this for decades if they granted section 30 right now then set about building a positive case for the union through the campaign, but their fundamental problem is that last part, as it would be next to impossible to do so with any credibility right now.

DonateBloodNCheckSmokeAlarms · 02/08/2022 18:29

I'm Scottish, live in Scotland.
The majority of people in Scotland did NOT vote for Nicola.
The majority either didn't vote or voted for someone else.

But no party got more votes than her so she got in.
Only 50% want Scottish independence. Those people hate the Tories anyway.

Ach good on Liz Truss, we need a PM who will stand up to Nicola.

Abhannmor · 02/08/2022 18:30

Her knockabout style reminds me of another Unionist politician ; the Reverend Ian Paisley. He mellowed a bit in later life and helped to bring about the Good Friday Agreement and peace in Northern Ireland.

So maybe Truss will mature like one of her beloved cheeses.

bubblescoop · 02/08/2022 18:30

YABU. She’s right.

Nicola Sturgeon is the yappy Jack Russell that makes a lot of noise but everyone ignores because it’s just all bullshit.

RhannionKPSS · 02/08/2022 18:33

I wish women up here could ignore Sturgeon, but we can’t because she & SNP/ Greens are attempting to destroy the rights of women and children in Scotland.
The SNP do not represent the whole of Scotland & are only in power due to their grubby dealings with the Greens.
Sturgeon is very good at dishing out insults but not so good at receiving them.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 18:38

@RhannionKPSS

The SNP were 'in power' for months before the Greens deal came about, and have been continuously since 2007, mainly because the Scots electorate continually return them there.

Interesting that you view democratic process as 'grubby' though. Presumably you are more a fan of FPTP systems where even smaller proportions of the electorate voting for a party can result in enormous majorities, and even less representative governments?

Loics · 02/08/2022 18:39

The awkward thing is, even on here people can't separate independence from Sturgeon. Even beforehand it was "I don't want independence because I don't like Salmond".
Well, if Scotland becomes independent, vote for another party. 🤷‍♀️ I don't support the union, but it isn't because I dislike Boris, leaders are transient, but people can't separate the 2 and will vote no based on their dislike of the SNP.

RhannionKPSS · 02/08/2022 18:47

If Scotland was independent now the rights of women and children would be well & truly fucked!!!
Scotland doesn’t deserve independence if it’s government, under any party, cannot or will not preserve the rights of women & girls.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 02/08/2022 18:48

ApresGoldRush · 02/08/2022 18:01

I'm English, and it's probably worth clarifying that attitude is very prevalent here, and it extends beyond NS and the SNP in general. You're part of the UK, with all it's benefits to you financially, so get over it.

It's a democracy, and as such will essentially be governed by the areas of the largest population. That's how it works.

We are part of the UK for now. If a majority of those living in Scotland decide to leave then we won't be.

Out of interest what financial benefits do you refer too?

Being liablie for a portion of an ever increasing national debt, over which we have no say in how much is borrowed or how it is spent?

Maybe it's the joys of enduring years of austerity with the prospect of decades more to come as successive UK government's preside over ever widening inequalities?

Or how about us having the privilege of paying more to not only to use our own energy (despite Scotland being completely and utterly self-sufficient), but to generate it too?

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 02/08/2022 18:51

RhannionKPSS · 02/08/2022 18:47

If Scotland was independent now the rights of women and children would be well & truly fucked!!!
Scotland doesn’t deserve independence if it’s government, under any party, cannot or will not preserve the rights of women & girls.

Not sure I follow your logic.

Independence = SNP government in perpetuity?

We have SNP governance right now. If you want rid of the SNP, the most obvious way to do that is bring about Indi and remove their single most coalescing factor.

rusticaflores · 02/08/2022 18:54

I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe I'm not the only one to say this, but you are all barking up the wrong tree.

She's saying it to appeal to the Scottish Tory voters. To get their votes in the leadership campaign. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm Scottish. I despise all Tories with a passion, I'm undecided on Independence, and I'm neither a Nicola-lover or hater.

Luxa · 02/08/2022 18:54

Politicians say things like this all the time at PMQs. It's normal. Is it perceived as worse coming from a woman?

KatsuHurry · 02/08/2022 18:57

As well as making statements that diss their opponents, politicians need to say things that appeal to their own supporters too. It's basically like saying bad things about the French/German/Irish/whoever-else, it will play well with her own core supporters. Not sure why SNP/Scots are any way upset or surprised at that. It's totally normal.

With Truss, it's also impossible to know her underlying beliefs with respect to Scotland (since she has changed tack on many issues in the past). If she thinks saying bad things about Scots/SNP helps her cause, of course she will do that. Why not?