To think Britain is heading towards economical and social collapse

[Cheesecakeandwineinasuitcase]

It feels like we are living in strange times, having come out of a global pandemic, the war in Ukraine and now the cost of living crisis and the added pressure from Brexit.

Ive barely slept tonight, worrying about what might happen with energy prices. I’ve heard the energy price cap is expected to rise to £3,850 in October. A few months ago I’m sure they predicting it would be £2,400 and that was horrifying enough.
Now I’m seeing people on the energy support Facebook group talking about monthly energy costs of £900 per month. It feels like this is escalating out of control very quickly and the Government are allowing us to sleepwalk into a disaster.

I realised tonight that if the price cap does keep increasing at the rate it has then what will happen to all the businesses once people can’t afford their energy bills anymore? They will probably increase their prices to try and cover their costs but that will drive down sales even more as people won’t have as much money to spend anymore. Eventually it will only be the essentials that we can afford so that surely means that all the other businesses won’t be able to afford to keep going?

Then what? Unless our government actually get their heads together about this then the whole country will end up in financial ruin and we will see the breakdown of society. Why so much focus on the leadership contest, surely that must take a back step.

Ive just checked the parliament website and the House of Commons has now gone into summer recess so they won’t meet again until September! I think this is an emergency situation and that they should be called back to focus on this. They get paid enough.

I think it’s outrageous that they can claim for utility bills on their expenses when there are people out there with young children who are worried about being cut off and put onto a prepayment meter.

Do you have a battery as well as the panels? We looked into it but it was really expensive. The way things are going I think I might have to look into it again. I’m torn between keeping the money aside incase we end up really needling it, or taking a gamble by investing in panels. I expect everyone is trying to get them now anyway and the prices of those will have gone up too.

Its a temporary drop in voltage (intentional or not) from what I understand from another poster on here who mentioned it.

‘Collapse’ is a strong word but it’s going to be far worse than many seem to realise and politicians are barely acknowledging it. You’re right to be worried.

So you both worked in the NHS during its last decade under the Thatcher/Major Tory government, and you present this as evidence that it wasn't working efficiently under the Blair/Brown Labour government? Despite the fact that evidence of massive improvements to the metrics you state and others were made during that time and are well documented and supported by evidence (and have now been reversed by . . . you guessed it, another Tory government).

As I brought the subject up, I should clarify what I meant by efficiency as well. Efficiency is simply the value of return that you get on your input. The NHS didn't sink to appallingly low service levels under the Tories because it was "inefficient" (that was the lie put about by Cameron in selling the need for austerity), it did so because it was underfunded. You can have the most efficient business, service or anything else in the world and if it requires a certain level of input to function at the level you want, it will still suffer if that level is reduced. Efficiency isn't a panacea.

There have been various studies comparing how the NHS performs relative to its funding with various systems in other countries, and concluding that it is among the most efficient in the world. The reason it's not necessarily the best system in the world (depending on how you measure it) is that it gets far lower funding. UK per capita spending on healthcare as a proportion of GDP is consistently lower than that of other comparable economies.

If anyone thinks our current problems are all the fault of this government, they are not. Some are. We do not have high enough productivity in this country to pay higher wages. We don’t earn them. We need to pay taxes to afford what we do want, but if we do not have growth, we don’t get the tax income.

We need leaders to radically try different approaches. The NHS cannot do everything it’s trying to do. People must be encouraged to take out private healthcare. We need a hybrid system. We cannot control gas prices. We can encourage other forms of power but no one wants wind farms. We want solar panels but cannot buy them. Industry is hampered by difficult trading conditions. We need to push on with nuclear power.

We have inflation. That affects the poor the most. Targeted help is vital but we don’t target. We help everyone. Inflation means wages will rise and goods cost more. That leads to more inflation etc etc. We have to try snd tackle inflation but in a global economy it’s difficult.

Too many politicians only look at how to stay as MPs and they are not good enough to be leaders. They won’t tackle the issues such as social care. Look what happened to Teresa May when she did. No one has the guts to deal with our major issues. And if you voted for Brexit! You’ve now got what you voted for. Isolation and no growth in the economy. It’s dire.

Thanks for posting, really interesting. I thought we had the highest tax at the moment than we’ve had for 70 years? Be interesting to see what average personal taxation levels are across europe.

I have lived through all sorts but things are looking really bleak, and the tories fanny around talking about bullshit tax cuts that won’t make much difference. I truly hate them for what they are about to inflict on the people.

Oh make no mistake, the tax cuts will make a difference.

They'll make things much worse, because the government will have less money to spend on public services and helping those that need it. (But of course when it says expenditure can't go up because we don't have the money, people will accept it and vote for them again, because we must be "fiscally responsible", don't you know.)

YANBU, it's all in the hands of approx.160k tory members what happens next... Unless you voted for Boris in the last election - then you got what you asked for. Indirectly. Putin included. He's been a ticking time bomb as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah but then it all "trickles down", right?

No???

I have been doing that at the start of each month, and I've got the app. I'm currently £77 in arrears, on the flexible 7 plan with Shell. I'm paying about 70p per day in standing charges, before using any power. They say my usage is approx £170 for July. For feb it was approx £300. I'm really worried about the cost this winter. I earn approx £1100 after tax/NI.

I’m hoping that people don’t vote for them again. Labour had a 14 point lead yesterday. Hopefully Truss will cock up even more and this lead will increase

@Fifteentoes I agree with you that certain "socialist" principles work at large scales, which is why even those who favour more libertarian or free market principles see the value of a lean state to oversee things that can be done at scale. Your NHS example could fit there.

But the problem with socialism at such a large scale is that it relies heavily on people seeing the collective good because they are happy to. Everyone paying according to what they have, everyone contributing according to what they can, everyone taking according to what they need.

What we end up with is things that work great in spirit but have dire consequences in reality.

Tax credits for example - everyone taking according to what they need. This fails spectacularly when our free market economy is set up so that wages will rise when people stop doing those jobs. It never happens because people in receipt of tax credits are topped up, people who come from other countries can send "shit wages" home and support entire families, and the people who suffer are those who still need the jobs but don't have any of these advantages.

Council housing are another example. When you are paying 1/2 the market rate, you can probably survive better on minimum wage when your rent is £400 compared to someone who can't find anything cheaper than £1200 a month. There is no "taking according to need" principle because you don't pass it on to someone who needs it more when your circumstances change.

I could give you literally 100s of examples of how government intervention either gets in the way of the free market capitalism we're supposed to be allowing to run our economy, fucking things up and ultimately making it worse and creating unfairness. The covid contracts are one, the Scottish land "carbon offset" is another, furlough is another, even this £400 "gift" - all of which is just our taxes btw - are all just in the last year or so.

With 68 million people in your "collective community" all it does is divide us. People get frustrated, then they get angry, then they start to think fuck the rest, I'd probably do better if I just focused on me because I'd be alright. You cannot hold the people implementing this to account when they are at the opposite end of the country and you are just one of 68 million.

When your "collective community" is in the hundreds or thousands, or even tens of thousands, people are far more willing to subscribe to the idea of socialism where those who can, do, and those who can't are supported because you care about your community. This is without going into how much easier it is to hold leadership accountable. The community knows you're only giving that contract to that brand new business because he's your brother-in-law, and the community knows where you live, and the community is close enough to take action.

There is really nothing new here, it's the way humans have operated for almost the entire time we have been human.

Of course things are better in so many ways now (the NHS and technological advancements being just two of them) but there is no real reason we need to throw all of those things away. What we should be doing is keeping what works for us, the people, and throwing away the rest.

If anyone thinks our current problems are all the fault of this government, they are not. Some are. We do not have high enough productivity in this country to pay higher wages. We don’t earn them. We need to pay taxes to afford what we do want, but if we do not have growth, we don’t get the tax income.

do you think low productivity is the fault of the government?

Yes definitely this

If anyone thinks our current problems are all the fault of this government, they are not. Some are. We do not have high enough productivity in this country to pay higher wages. We don’t earn them. We need to pay taxes to afford what we do want, but if we do not have growth, we don’t get the tax income

12 years is plenty to address the failings of the country, Boris may have convinced everyone the Tories only came into power in 2019 but they are solely responsible for 10 years, at least, of Austerity and that is basically where are problems lie.

They didn't invest and didn't encourage private sector investment either.

That wouldn't work, if a private company (and they are all private) cannot make money out of selling us energy, they will either go bust or fold that division....

If you want that, than the industry has to be nationalised and gas sold from the NS on global markets held here in the UK for us only.

a somewhat socialist answer, which will never happen under the Tories.... but what Corbyn wanted back in 2019.... you know that "marxist" who yet again has proven to be on the right side of history.

If anyone thinks our current problems are all the fault of this government, they are not. Some are. We do not have high enough productivity in this country to pay higher wages. We don’t earn them. We need to pay taxes to afford what we do want, but if we do not have growth, we don’t get the tax income

The Tories have been in power 12 years. Who else’s fault is it? They are meant to be the party of the economy?

l said in my previous post l felt we were in dangerous times. The word l should have used was anarchic. Everything seems out of control with a useless government at the head of it.

I agree that austerity didn't help & lack of investment has harmed productivity

Will be great to see our democracy thriving as all the experts commenting on what should be done put themselves forward for election - same as through the pandemic.

It's sooooo easy to play armchair politics.

It was short sighted

why dont you educate yourself?

I am not usually rude, but just spouting words so that you yourself do not have to look into things, does no one any favours.

Perhaps you have not been brought up to look into things, but we are in 2022. So much information at your fingertips.

@Silvercatowner

Look at the Weimar Republic.

What we have had in recent years is chief executives of many large corporations, and government ministers, deliberately confusing restructuring in order to save money by indiscriminately getting rid of people and paying those who are left less for working harder, with efficiency. The reality is decreased productivity, because overworked, unhappy, underpaid people forced into restructured roles that make no sense to them and in which they lack experience, because those with the experience to help them have been moved on, are not productive in the long term - nor do they have any sense of loyalty to their treacherous employers. However, the chief executives and government ministers still patted themselves on the back for saving money through their bungled restructuring programmes, and expected generous rewards for their faux-superb management abilities, all while abysmally failing to tackle the real problems the world is facing. Yet we still wonder why no government department seems to function properly, why the NHS is falling to bits and massively understaffed, why P&O, British Gas, British Airways, etc, have all behaved in these ways and unsurprisingly only managed to reduce the quality of their offer to the public along with their reductions in staff.

Yes the Weimar Republic