To think Britain is heading towards economical and social collapse

[Cheesecakeandwineinasuitcase]

It feels like we are living in strange times, having come out of a global pandemic, the war in Ukraine and now the cost of living crisis and the added pressure from Brexit.

Ive barely slept tonight, worrying about what might happen with energy prices. I’ve heard the energy price cap is expected to rise to £3,850 in October. A few months ago I’m sure they predicting it would be £2,400 and that was horrifying enough.
Now I’m seeing people on the energy support Facebook group talking about monthly energy costs of £900 per month. It feels like this is escalating out of control very quickly and the Government are allowing us to sleepwalk into a disaster.

I realised tonight that if the price cap does keep increasing at the rate it has then what will happen to all the businesses once people can’t afford their energy bills anymore? They will probably increase their prices to try and cover their costs but that will drive down sales even more as people won’t have as much money to spend anymore. Eventually it will only be the essentials that we can afford so that surely means that all the other businesses won’t be able to afford to keep going?

Then what? Unless our government actually get their heads together about this then the whole country will end up in financial ruin and we will see the breakdown of society. Why so much focus on the leadership contest, surely that must take a back step.

Ive just checked the parliament website and the House of Commons has now gone into summer recess so they won’t meet again until September! I think this is an emergency situation and that they should be called back to focus on this. They get paid enough.

I think it’s outrageous that they can claim for utility bills on their expenses when there are people out there with young children who are worried about being cut off and put onto a prepayment meter.

I think that the energy price hike has a lot to do with the Ukraine war. When the UK started its sanctions they should have levelled with the people about their indirect effects especially as the poorest in society are disproportionately impacted.

we do have a duty to assist Ukraine and restrain Russia but the government must have been able to predict energy price surges as a consequence of its action.

I think energy prices will continue to rise.

its all over the world tho.....relatives in spain update me with their costs and all are much higher except gas than the uk....their groceries have rocketed....a lot of items are 40% dearer or higher than the uk....ok low council tax and better medicals etc but they are really struggling....

But Labour have no plans to significantly change anything.

The UK is not the only country facing hard times. The following was cut and pasted from today's Telegraph.

"Italy has struggled to bring down high debt, deal with discontent over stagnant wages and an economy that has barely grown in real terms in the last two decades.

Italian public debt has hit 151pc following the pandemic, compared to 96pc in the UK and 69pc in Germany."

Rinatina, “be interesting to see what average personal taxation levels are across europe“, much more difficult to compare with different bandings etc. If we have higher taxes now, we are for sure still lower than most comparable countries. Generally, I think the UK has always held itself to be a lower tax economy. This was particularly visible around Brexit debates, ‘We can be like Switzerland,
like Norway’ etc. We are most dissimilar to those economies.

Tax as a percentage of GDP is an interesting comparison.

For those countries I listed above,

Germany: 37.5% (tax revenue as a percentage of GDP)
Ireland: 22.8% !!! Could be due to the infamous low corporation tax?
France 46.2%
Spain 33.7%
Denmark 46%
Sweden 44%
UK 33.3%

I wish we could have more of a public debate around these things, e.g. why does the UK have such low productivity as someone upthread mentioned? These things are pushed aside in favour of the various tiresome ideological power plays that are not advancing us.

Ah yes it’ll just be the poorer ones with no food or electricity, don’t worry.

@Rinatinabina thank you 😊

@Tha But the problem with socialism at such a large scale is that it relies heavily on people seeing the collective good because they are happy to.

Surely solutions to climate change are the perfect place for that, then? If people can't see the collective good of us all having a habitable planet to live on, rather than none, what hope is there?

If anyone thinks our current problems are all the fault of this government, they are not. Some are. We do not have high enough productivity in this country to pay higher wages

Yet we have high enough productivity that we have super-rich with huge property portfolios, superyachts, constant travel and so on. Lack of productivity is the constant complaint of the right, usually directed at much poorer working class people as they tear up employment rights and reduce wages.

It’s distribution that’s the issue. We are working far harder than our parents were, for much less.

Of course the UK is not the only country facing hard times. This is the face of modern, global, neoliberal capitalism. Voters have no control over those who really hold the power - that’s in private hands. We just elect the nodding dogs, not the tail that is wagging them.

There's a lot of very privileged people posting on this thread. Its disgusting how ignorant other people are about how devastating this kind of increase will be to a lot of people in our society. And not just for the 'poor people'.

@Blossomtoes The person I quoted suggested that they were going to leave university and commence a £30,000 job. I pointed out that there are people significantly younger than them with just four years work experience who are already earning more than £30,000 a year. Friends children,
The junior doctors that graduated at the same time as my daughter last year from Liverpool University are all earning more than £30,000 per year in their first year.

A nurse would not typically go from a nursing degree to doing a masters in nursing without gaining a number of years of experience and therefore climbing the bandings before commencing their masters. Again another friend completed hers last year but she’s already got 25 years of experience and I can assure you she’s on a lot more than £30,000 a year.

@XingMing Yes, Italy is the economy we are most similar to right now.

OP, we're at war - economic war with Russia. It may not have been formally declared, but that's what it is. And much as I dislike Boris Johnson, his ousting played right into Russia's hands, as will the social unrest that goes hand in hand with high inflation.

Meanwhile, China are watching and waiting for an opportunity to lay claim on Taiwan. That will make the current economic turmoil seem like the calm before the storm.

I appreciate the desire to look at climate issues but don’t you think incentive plays beneficial role?

eg the printer I mentioned that can reuse paper over and over. Someone has taken on the risk knowing that if it becomes viable the financial reward will be great.

We have a system that rewards invention and motivates people to create and change

It needs a push in the right direction sometimes - eg tax breaks but inventive thinking is powerful too

And added to that sometimes labour movements are resistant to change because people need the skills or need to switch to something else

I think total social and economic collapse is a bit OTT but it’s going to be shit for a lot of people. But hey, we have what we voted for, what did we expect?

The NHS was not running efficiently until 2010. I worked for the NHS as a nurse from 1989 to 1997 and it was a very long way from efficiently run even then. I can clearly remember bed shortages, cancellations, people on trolleys in corridors etc.

The facts don’t agree with you.

www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/High-Performing-NHS-progress-review-1997-2010-Ruth-Thorlby-Jo-Maybin-Kings-Fund-April-2010.pdf

I think the real problem is that you are lying awake worrying about a worst case scenario. The UK, by European standards, is an unbelievably stable society. Last revolution in Denmark, 1848. Last revolution in England/Wales, 1688. The most serious political upheaval in recent years was Brexit, and we dealt with that as a society by cutting silences at family meet ups, throwing milkshakes, waving lots of placards and being really sarcastic on social media. It wasn’t exactly ‘to the barricades!’

The likelihood of a full scale societal breakdown because of energy shortages is small; a World War Two style controlled energy rationing combined with subsidies is more likely. Petrol rationing was ready to go in the world energy crisis of 1973, for example, but in the end, wasn’t needed.

Your energy worries - economies are personal. What can you, personally do to cushion the shock? Energy savings in your house, developing other income streams, planning for power cuts? Positive action on a family basis is going to help, not only because it might make your income match the new outgoings, but because it will make you feel more in control.

The future: renewables are now 40% or more of our total energy use. The original target for 2020 was 30%. Battery research is ongoing, but we’ve currently got nearly 2 gigawatts of grid level storage - I seem to vaguely recall that there’s some enthusiasm about highly compressed gas as a replacement/supplement to pumped water storage. I suspect part of the reason we’re being less enthusiastic about nuclear is that becoming 90% self sufficient with renewables by 2050 is starting to look plausible.

People do die of hypothermia and lack of nutrition. In Britain. Every year.
Many are homeless people living on the streets. Some have their homes but feel they cannot heat them on their income or pension.
This is a real crisis and deaths from hypothermia will rise this winter, I’m sure.

@Blossomtoes I must have imagined the inefficiently run shit show that was North and Central Manchester Hospitals when I worked there 1989-1997. All those cancelled operations, patients waiting on trolleys for beds and oodles of agency staff must have been a figment of my imagination 🙄

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/12/labour-winning-policies-party-keir-starmer-public

^The future: renewables are now 40% or more of our total energy use. The original target for 2020 was 30%.

That makes me more concerned and not less

You’re talking about a different time period. If you look at the link it covers 1997 to 2010. In 2010 the NHS was in the best shape it’s ever been. I was working in it then.