To say suck it up like the rest of us???

[ticktickticktickBOOM]

I come from a socialist family, we had striking miner's kids living with us for respite during the strikes. However, the railway unions are taking the pee aren't they? Transport workers aren't the only people taking a hit right now. What about the 100's of thousands of hospitality, leisure, carer and charity workers in bars, cafe's, restaurants, theme parks, swimming pools, hotels, campsites, working in supporting all our children and elderly relatives etc that are getting between tiny and zero wage increases yet have no option but to carry on and make ends meet. Why can't railway workers see the problems they are going to cause and why can't they see that they are IN THE SAME BOAT AS EVERYONE ELSE (except the wealthy obvs).

YABU - striking railway workers are more deserving of pay increases than the rest of us

YANBU - we need to pull together and see every member of society through this and not cause each other harm

I don't support the RMT's actions.

They, and "Brexit Mick" campaigned for us to ruin our economy which is the root cause of our country being even more financially fucked than all the other rich nations.

Mick Lynch and co' can FRO.

Yeah, the problem is that they are still talking about leaving and retraining. Nobody will take any notice until they put their money where their mouths are, in significant numbers.

I worked in the public sector for a few years. In finance, not frontline. I worked in three separate bodies. In each of them, the first and last thing I heard from colleagues was that morale had never been so low. Morale was on the floor. It was negative. They were all going to leave and get jobs in the private sector etc. etc.

Guess what? None of them actually left. So morale can’t have been as bad as they claimed, can it?

@Iamthewombat

No, I'm happy to pay more tax too.

Not for a tory govt granted but otherwise sure but only if tax avoidance and evasion are properly tackled and wealth inequality actually dealt with

The issue with workers (understandably) asking for inflation matching wages is that firstly the rates of inflation we see currently are hopefully not permanent. The idea is that the rate of inflation falls if/as things stabilise globally. So employers aren’t going to want to offer a 10% plus increase that will be permanent to meet a temporary inflation spike. Also if all workers had an increase to match current inflation this would be self defeating as prices would rise causing further inflation. For me the answer to this issue lies in tax cuts.

I hope they strike too. I hope there is a General Strike like in 1926, expect longer lasting & more successful.

I also hope this. We all need to take action together.

Yes, but where is the evidence of widespread TA shortages, or significant teacher shortages such that schools are offering recruitment and retention premia for subjects other than STEM, in statistically significant numbers?

The profits that the rail companies are taking and passing on to shareholders are obscene, while they keep workers on appallingly low pay - NOT the drivers - the cleaners, ticket office workers etc
Of course they are going to strike, if there's no progress in talks. And we should support them. And I very much regret that Mick Lynch is a Brexiter, but that doesn't mean that he's wrong about this.

Agreed with you. I've used public transport almost every day for approx 30 years and originally when British Rail weren't privatised things were better.

However, I've stood on platforms waiting for trains which are delayed, cancelled, driver doesn't turn up, etc and it's awful. My main train if I get it is Thameslink to King's Cross (via Tulse Hill) yet every day it's packed and I don't get a seat. Who designed these bloody trains?! It's better than pre-pandemic where some mornings you'd literally fight to get on the trains. I now get an express bus to work and back which costs a fraction of the train ticket and is less for me to walk to as well and I always get a seat. Downside is no cafe at the bus stop but I can live with that!

One of the main reasons rail strikers are striking is because like me (only in office 2 days a week) they're worried about less people using their services. Well the train companies should've thought about improving their services sooner.

How on earth are the lower paid workers going to pay additional tax though if they're struggling to pay for fuel/heating/food? I personally think rates like 70% in France for high earners are too high and likely to just encorage evasion. However, it would be nice if the government would work a bit harder in closing the loopholes that allow businesses and high-net worth individuals to avoid paying their fair share.

But what you're complaining about is policy on the part of the companies who are also screwing over their workers, which is why the workers are striking.

YABU. They have a right to demand a decent wage - and tbh nobody should have to 'suck it up' when there are almost 200 billionaires in the U.K, and a bunch of mega - corporations making massive profits; who if taxed fairly would make these demands moot.

We should all be on strike really. Boils my piss.

There seems to be an entire level of ignorance about the implications for EVERY worker, if the rail bosses are allowed to rip up the contracts of the rail workers (and yes, that include does the drivers)
Currently YOUR contract, offers you protection from your employer frankly “shitting” on you.
Of these proposals go ahead, the implications are

• the rail workers will be worse off financially than they are currently, not in comparison to inflation, but in ACTUAL terms. A rail worker currently working 5 days will be taking home less money they will be under the new proposals.


• Their pensions will be worth less than they are now.


• They will be forced to work unsocial hours and weekends - currently the law states that we all have the option to opt out of Sunday working


• cuts to rail safety will impact everyone. Just the other day, there was an incident on a train, and passengers needed to be escorted to safety by the crew. No crew - no one to do this. No one to help a disabled person alight and get to safety. An incident on the unmanned DLR saw a lady dragged along the platform after her coat got caught in the door. If her coat had been done up, and she had not managed to wriggle free, she would have been under the wheels. A train manager/ guard checks tickets, but they also play a huge role in ensuring that passengers are safe and feel safe. They remove people from dangerous situations all the time. Staff on stations make people feel safer than standing on deserted platforms, and assist with making sure you get on the right train. Staff on trains can keep you informed about any delays or potential problems with your journey - the train manager arranged a taxi for someone who missed her connection

If these contracts can be ripped up, and these workers can be left with no job security, and financially worse off, so can I and so can YOU

The only ‘solution’ that would be acceptable to you, it seems, is immediate 10%+ pay rises for everyone who decides to go on strike. I asked upthread, in response to a different poster who thought that all public sector workers should get a 10% pay rise backdated to last April, where the money was coming from. How much more tax was she prepared to pay, personally? What sacrifices would she make?

Funnily enough, neither she, nor anyone else replied. But that’s a pretty fundamental question, isn’t it?

Just to add, that currently the price of our train tickets is not reflected in the pay packets of the rail workers. Bosses are taking huge salaries. And, to ME, even MORE annoyingly, many of our rail companies are owned by other countries, who are using OUR fares to subsidise their own countries public transport systems.

No-one should suffer to effect improvement for all. No-one except the people that have the power to make the changes that is.

Impacting those in power without anyone else suffering is a fairy tale idea. We can reduce that suffering with good community networks, but we can't eliminate it.

by boycotting using their services and refuse to buy tickets until they give comply with mass demand? That would be MUCH more effective in getting some fast action.

Boycotts are not the route to fast action. Most effective boycotts last months, many into years - and they work by building an alternative and networks of safety nets for those affected, like that family respite. That's a big part of why no one has called for it yet - they take a lot of effort and involve pain over a long period of time.

I can only feel history education and our society's commemoration of the work and lives put into improving work standards that there are so many who think strikes should be painless to the public, boycotts make fast anything, and that many having it worse or being unable to strike is somehow a reason why people shouldn't be fighting for better.

Lower paid workers don’t pay as much tax, proportional to their income, as higher paid people. That’s what the personal allowance is for (and, parenthetically, why flat rate tax is a terrible idea). We have some of the lowest tax rates in Europe. We can’t have a free at the point of delivery healthcare system and low taxation. That should be obvious. Everyone will claim that they can’t afford to pay more tax. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t.

And nobody is talking about 70% income tax rates for the U.K.

@Iamthewombat

You said you had solutions. Your solution was to deny and minimise the issue. Thats not a solution

And yes, I would like to see all lower paid workers get a wage increase. 10% seems about right.

I'd like this to be funded from the massive profits corporations are making.

Properly taxing them.

Introducing linked wages.

Tackling housing and fuel costs

I'd be willing to pay more tax and for goods if things were fairer rather than just making billionaires richer

What profits ARE the rail operating companies remitting to their shareholders? How do you know that those profits are obscene? Measured how? What net profit margin is, in your opinion, obscene? It’s a genuine question.

Statement by Network Rail ONE of many rail networks in the Uk
“This year we made a profit before tax of £1.6bn (2019/20: £375m). This improvement was mainly due to the changes in the five-year funding settlement which made allowance for additional renewals activity which we successfully delivered, together with much improved train performance.”

Not this again. Every poorly thought out argument about tax is the same. Close the loopholes! Make Amazon pay more tax! Etc. !

Firstly, what is a ‘loophole’? I’m familiar with the tax legislation. Do you think that the finance acts are deliberately written to contain ‘Easter eggs’ that only the wise can spot and exploit? Like a treasure hunt, whilst all the tax boffins gently laugh at each other’s brainy endeavours, like on Only Connect? No.

I’ve already explained, upthread, that the U.K. government cannot itself prevent businesses shifting profits to lower tax environments. The international BEPS legislation does that. To reiterate the example above, we can’t invade Luxembourg and say, “we’re occupying you until you agree not to sign any forward agreements with multinationals, you rotters”. However, you might want to consider that when you buy cheap stuff from Amazon rather than from a U.K.- based business that pays all its tax in the U.K., you’re indirectly facilitating tax avoidance.

Re the billionaires: you or somebody else say that there are 200 in the U.K. what’s your plan? To take a billion off each of them because they won’t miss it? How successful would that be, do you think? Even if you did get £1Bn off each of them, how far do you think that would go towards the 10% pay rise you think that every public sector worker should get? Not very, is the answer.

Network Rail is an arms’ length public body. The shareholders are us. We should be welcoming the profits they make. It’s the train operating companies that are paying to use the track.

@Iamthewombat

I didnt mention loopholes.

I'm aware it's practically impossible to enforce.

But that is the only viable answer

We cant keep pretending that capitalism works. We cant keep pretending that the massive and ever widening wealth gap and inequality is ok.

You're blaming the wrong people.

Its not those at the bottom to blame

No, but you said, “properly taxing them”. Which means that you think that they are currently being improperly or insufficiently taxed, in a manner that is unfair to equivalent businesses. That is the hoary old ‘loophole’ argument.

It’s a shame that you’ve veered off into bemoaning capitalism and claiming that I’m ‘blaming those at the bottom’. I’m not. Look upthread and you’ll see a post from me in which I set out the consequences of inflation-fuelling pay rises, achieved by strikes, on the very poorest people.

Iamthewombat
can we assume that you’re happy to accept a pay cut on your own behalf, and a loss of your personal pension then?

Well here's a link to an article about First Group making huge profits - they award contracts to GWR and other rail companies: www.sharesmagazine.co.uk/news/market/1655202247213645200/firstgroup-extends-gwr-contract-as-annual-profit-surges-on-disposal