To say suck it up like the rest of us???

[ticktickticktickBOOM]

I come from a socialist family, we had striking miner's kids living with us for respite during the strikes. However, the railway unions are taking the pee aren't they? Transport workers aren't the only people taking a hit right now. What about the 100's of thousands of hospitality, leisure, carer and charity workers in bars, cafe's, restaurants, theme parks, swimming pools, hotels, campsites, working in supporting all our children and elderly relatives etc that are getting between tiny and zero wage increases yet have no option but to carry on and make ends meet. Why can't railway workers see the problems they are going to cause and why can't they see that they are IN THE SAME BOAT AS EVERYONE ELSE (except the wealthy obvs).

YABU - striking railway workers are more deserving of pay increases than the rest of us

YANBU - we need to pull together and see every member of society through this and not cause each other harm

Money supply controls, and strategies to grow GDP, and tax levers, are not ‘pie in the sky’. Governments around the world use them every day.

What would an ‘empathetic’ argument look like? Fiscal policy isn’t run on empathy. Do you think that whoever complains the loudest should get the most money?

What do I expect unionised people doing essential jobs to do? I expect them to do what the OP suggests, for the greater good. Loads of poorly-paid people can’t go on strike. It’s all very well saying, “they should just join a union”. Loads can’t. If you work for Sports Direct on a zero hours contract, on minimum wage, how are you going to be helped by the RMT going on strike? It might stop you getting to work: no money then. Agitating to unionise might have the same impact. Should those people be rejoicing at the RMT’s actions?

No, they shouldn’t. Big wage increases for other groups will drive prices up, including food and commodity prices. If the RMT get their 11%, rail fares will have to increase. If you are non-unionised, and poor, you’ll get the worst of it.

If you are somebody who has over-borrowed to buy a house, and you can’t deal with a moderate increase in interest rates, and that is a LOT of people, then my proposal would be that in exchange for government help, you effectively sell the government a percentage of your house, like an equity release plan. There isn’t the money to pay people’s mortgages for them without something in return.

To help with utility costs, I’d do what is already happening: inject some cash directly.

Precisely.

We are absolutely NOT in the same boat. We are all in the same storm, but those in luxury yachts are going to fare a lot better than those on a makeshift raft. That's the issue. YABU and not socialist at all.

But this only reinforces the point that OP is making - that things are tough for everyone right now - not just rail union staff. There are many, many cleaners on the minimum wage in the UK, some of whom have much worse conditions than the railways staff. There are many, many managers and customer service staff across the UK who are dealing with rude, difficult, abusive people. The whole point is that the rail staff do not have it any worse than others, and they are considerably better off than some.

And no, it's not that much loved MN phrase "a race to the bottom", and of course they have the right to ask for more money, but as the OP notes, there are many sectors where pay has been frozen, and striking has not been an option because of the serious impact this would have on other people's lives.

The RMT and other rail unions are lucky that they have the ability to strike - image if teachers and NHS staff downed tools and spent a lovely day in the sun as often as the RMT do? There would be complete outrage.

Things are not 'tough for everyone right now'. Didn't the MPs all just get a 12% payrise? The rail companies could give a better payrise and conditions to their workers but don't want to as it would cut their over-inflated profit margins.

Also, I don't think we'll have to imagine NHS staff and teachers striking. If their working conditions are not improved soon then it's pretty inevitable surely?

@Iamthewombat

How do you propose we fix the recruitment and retention crisis in so many lower paid sectors?

Firstly, the strikes aren't entirely - or even mostly - about pay, so you're already coming at this from a false premise.

But regardless of that: railway workers are not 'more deserving' of pay rises than other workers. They are 'as deserving' of pay rises as other workers. It's not their fault that the other workers you've mentioned either cannot or will not strike.

There is a power in a union and that power extends beyond the members of that union. When one group takes a stand (and bear in mind people aren't paid for being on strike, so they are losing money to take that stand) it empowers other workers to do the same and can drive up wages overall - if some employers are forced to look after their workers, other employers have to start following suit if they want to keep their staff.

My idea of 'pulling together' isn't passively accepting that workers can be treated like shit - it's supporting striking workers and having solidarity with them to make things better for everyone.

My daughter is not a member of a union, she says she cant afford the extra costs. Hence, in her full time job as a TA, she is expected to teach and has been teaching a class of up to 34 primary school children, over the last 18 months, whilst the teachers are off on maternity leave and covid/ long covid. Her income covers her rent on an ex council flat (shit hole) and her council tax, that' is all. Perhaps if she was in a union things might be different.

I’m sorry that your daughter isn’t earning enough to live comfortably. Sadly, I don’t think that unionising TAs is the answer. TA wages are low because demand for the jobs is high, much of it coming from people who want to work hours compatible with their own children. Where roles are highly sought after, wages tend to be depressed.

The only way that TAs, and teachers, and other public sector staff, will get above-average pay increases is if (1) people simply don’t choose to do those jobs, or quit the profession in significant numbers and (2) everybody agrees to pay more tax, so that there’s more to spend on public sector salaries. But neither of those things are happening, are they? Everybody keeps voting for lower tax. Both candidates for the Tory party leadership are promising tax cuts, achieved through different methods but tax cuts nonetheless. Even people whom tax increases would indirectly benefit react with horror at the thought of paying more tax. We get what we vote for.

Tell me what sectors you mean and I’ll answer. It’s a bit difficult to come up with a solution for unnamed professions.

@Iamthewombat

Yes. They are quitting those jobs in huge numbers.

Lots of sectors, including care and healthcare are in crisis due to staffing

@Iamthewombat

Nursing

Teaching

Doctors (not low paid but still unable to recruit or retain)

Carers

Airport staff

I'm sure there's loads more

I would be much more supportive of NHS staff and teachers striking, as I think those staff have far harder jobs than RMT union staff, in general. But the point remains - if they stopped work as often as the RMT did, there would be a much bigger knock on effect.

I agree with @Iamthewombat that seeking lower taxes all the time is not going to help improve public services or wages/conditions. However, what annoys me is the sheer amout of waste that the goverment take no accountability for. In particular with Covid and all the dodgy PPE contracts etc.

Where is the evidence that people are quitting TA and teaching jobs in significant enough numbers to cause a rethink of salaries? I can only see it in STEM subjects, for teachers.

I’ll cover healthcare in response to the other post asking me how I’d deal with recruitment and retention in other sectors (clue: it’s not encouraging the people doing those jobs to go on strike).

@nojudgementhere

I dont want lower taxes.

I want those who earn /take the most to pay at least what they should and probably more

@Iamthewombat

A quick Google brings up loads of articles about the UK staffing crisis across multiple sectors

Including teaching

I see it as them doing the work for the rest of us at the moment tbh. A victory for people striking is a victory for every worker in my view.

@Topgub - me too! Will probably see hell freeze over first though.

I work in a school and anecdotally have never seen morale so low. Both Teachers and TAs talking about leaving / retraining in another career and some already have. We are also really struggling to get supply.

Of course they shouldn't be sucking it up! We should ALL be demanding fair pay. As PP have said, it's not a race to the bottom.

12 years we have had this government. All that austerity for what? We are mostly in a worse financial position than before. Unless you happen to be rich, it's only going to keep getting worse.

We shouldn't be attacking others for standing up for fair pay and treatment. We should be supporting them and standing up for ourselves too.

Nursing: the people doing nursing roles are not helping their own profession’s bargaining power by doing bank work, are they? It might help them personally, because bank work pays well, but if trusts know that they can fall back on bank staff, they aren’t going to address recruitment and retention problems immediately. They are too busy firefighting.

Are nursing roles poorly paid? They aren’t well paid, but the Agenda for Change pay scales shows that Band 5, where most qualified nurses start, pays up to £31.5k. Then there’s a generous defined benefit pension scheme.

Nursing is a hard job, but I don’t see how increasing pay is going to make some bits of it less hard. Staff will still need to work shifts, to provide 24 hour care for sick people. The job involves dealing with difficult people. Nurses know that before they choose the profession. Earlier this year, it was reported that applications to study nursing hat hit an all time high.

Teaching: I’ve already covered this. It’s only the STEM subjects at secondary level that attract golden hellos. That tells me that there can’t be a crisis in recruitment for other subjects.

Doctors: there are plenty of people studying medicine at university. Applications for places outstrip supply. NHS consultants and GPs are very well paid, and many do private work on the side. Some of them are complaining about the fact that their NHS pension pots are over £1.1m and that they might leave the profession rather than pay tax on it. That’s not a retention crisis. It’s moaning.

Carers: care home fees need to go up, and we all need to deal with it. And no whining about ‘losing your inheritance’ when an elderly relative’s house or assets are used to fund care. Everyone who attempts to hide assets from local authorities, and councils are getting pretty good at recovering them incidentally, is indirectly contributing to low pay for carers. I’d relax immigration rules to help deal with this. If there are people who want to work in Britain, let them do it.

Airport staff: we all need to get used to paying more for our holidays. Cheap flights with eg Ryanair mean that corners are cut and somebody, usually the poorest paid people, get the pain. Would you choose baggage handling at Manchester airport if you could get more for working in the Amazon warehouse down the road? Of course you would.Those people have truly voted with their feet by leaving their airport jobs.

Of course you WOULDN’T, that should read!

What about the 100's of thousands of hospitality, leisure, carer and charity workers in bars, cafe's, restaurants, theme parks, swimming pools, hotels, campsites, working in supporting all our children and elderly relatives etc that are getting between tiny and zero wage increases yet have no option but to carry on and make ends meet.

I hope they strike too. I hope there is a General Strike like in 1926, expect longer lasting & more successful.

As would you OP, if you gave a solitary shit about ordinary workers, instead of appropriating socialist credentials via your family history, & displaying your appalling ignorance about the actual nature of the current rail strikes.

Eat The Rich!

@Iamthewombat

So you don't have any solutions then.

Thought not.

Just ignorance of the reality of the situation.

Are you saying everyone except you should pay more tax? Tax the rich, that old chestnut? High earners already pay most of the income tax collected by the Treasury. You’re not going to bring in significantly more income tax unless both basic rate and higher rate tax increase.