To think there is little incentive to work hard in the UK

[BeachTree]

Context. 30's, no kids, single, work full time.

Just a bit disheartened. I have never claimed benefits, or any type of support, I work hard to make sure I can support myself (Not disputing those who genuinely require benefits/support) I have always paid all my taxes, and national insurance. I expect by the time I reach retirement age, the 'state pension' may look very different to what it does now and may not be available despite having paid in my whole life.

I feel sometimes that I pay so much into the 'system' and get very little return and don't 'take' from it, whereas there are many people claiming every benefit possible, and constantly 'taking' from the system they don't pay into. There are so many ways to extract money from the system but only for those who don't work full time. I know someone who worked for about 1 or 2 year in late teens in the UK, then worked abroad for a number of years, during this time did not keep up with national insurance payments and obviously not paying UK tax as no in the country, also didn't pay tax in the country they resided in. Returned to England to have a baby on the NHS, now residing back in England, claiming benefits as a single parent for 2+ years, gets assistance with rent council tax etc despite having paid next to nothing in to the system. I cannot compute how this is fair.

For example the cost of living payment, people who claim benefits will get £650, where as those who work and do not claim benefits will get £400. The cost of living crisis affects all of us - perhaps more so the people who work their socks off and aren't 'entitled' to 'support' The system is backwards and not in favour of people who work full time to support our ridiculous benefit system. So many examples - ie. people get help with rent, council tax, working tax credits etc etc etc - however those who work get zero, zilch.

AIBU?

@Cantstandbullshit agree with that. It's a bandaid that's lasted a long time though - for a generation, really. And simultaneously we've had quantitative easing for the same amount of time, which is the government creating its own extra money. Has anybody thought about the consequences of doing both of these things together for fifteen years? Because what we're getting now - inflation heading towards stagflation sped up by a massive productivity gap and NOTHING to sell - looks to me very much like an economy that has fucked with how money works at a pretty fundamental level. Is it even capitalism any more?

I agree with you op and I think a lot of people will be in for a shock when their kids leave education and all the money stops. Being single in a low paid job its almost impossible to live but there's no help without having dependants.

Have you thought about moving abroad @BeachTree? Many other countries value & look after their tax paying citizens, providing them with things like a functioning health system. And a functioning government.

If I were child free, I'd be considering it right now because the UK is in a right a fucking state, with no clear end in sight.😬

What I don't get is how can some people afford holidays on benefits and yet in the same week we are being told that kids are starving because benefits aren't enough?

Well, if you'd like to swap with me...be my guest. If you think relying on benefits, never being able to increase your income, get a pay rise, get a new better job. Being disabled or a carer or with bad mental health....if you'd like to swap...let me know!

Because most people on benefits are working so obviously get wages too. If you're not able to work you're not able to increase your income and may struggle.

You can get a ulez compliant car for about 3k upwards

I agree on this. I’m not bashing people with benefits. I agree benefits to help people who need it!. But unfortunately i know one of two people on benefits they both still in their 30’s, not working, claiming benefits because they said they cant work, single parent. But in reality, they still with their partner, they dont have any disabilities. They done their nails every month, they went to saloon every month. Buying designer stuff. They both are just lazy and think why would they work if they can claim on benefits. Its just better work with cash on hand job and saying they are unemployed. I know this stuff because they told me personally.

i’m higher tax payer and my lifestyle even not as lavish as them. Unfortunately i bet people like that not just one or twice but many of them.

i dint mind benefits for people who needs it but in reality so many people abused it.

and for me i dont even qualified for child benefits anymore 😑 sometime it feel so unreal and unfair. I think gov need to tidying up the system. So people who claim benefits only people who really need it.

You sound ignorant, OP. It's so easy to say that people should find a job or work more hours etc. The reality isn't always quite so straightforward. Yes, there are probably some people who take the piss but they're a very small minority. There are so many reasons why people end up on benefits. They are often unwell, physically or mentally. They may have caring responsibilities. They may lack the confidence or the skills that they need for employment. They might simply be having a run of bad luck that means they're struggling to find a job. It's easy to judge until you walk in their shoes.

I'm a net contributor and have been for many years. I pay a lot of tax, but I'm happy to do so because I recognise how incredibly lucky I am to be able to hold down a job that gives me that opportunity. I value our public services and our welfare state. The benefits system is there as a safety net for people who need it... one day, that might be you or me.

Yes I’m absolutely sick of paying so much in taxes, pension, student loan with wages stagnant and everything else rising. Sometimes I wonder why I bothered to get qualified and into a professional job as I’m just average jo in the middle being squeezed. Young woman next door has never worked had three kids and has a lovely 3 bed association house rent paid. The rich who don’t contribute enough in tax under this government are the main problem though.

Voted yanbu just because when I did less hours I was far more better off. My housing benefit basically covered most of my rent. Now I do 2 more hours a day I get no housing benefit or council tax reduction and less tax credits. I should ask my boss to reduce my hours really as it's not worth it for me financially.

People on benefits are not a homogeneous group. I am an unemployed SM, I am on benefits. I cannot afford foreign holidays.

My NDNs are a married, working couple with 3 children. They are on benefits. They sometimes go abroad.

My elderly ExMiL is housebound with multiple, complicated health problems. She is on benefits.

On benefits is much of the population of the UK.🤷‍♀️ That's how much of a balls up the Tories have made of the place.

I work full time 37 hours a week, for the local government, I'm entitled to universal credit because they don't pay enough to keep a single parent with one child out of poverty on the crappy wages.
I love my job and I'm not uncomfortable yet, but would it not make more sense for the government to pay me a living wage than for the government to pay me a shit wage and then the government top it up via universal credit???

If OP did find herself in that position, her attitude probably wouldn't change. She'd just see herself as one of the Good Genuine Deserving Poor, and she would blame the Lazy Feckless Fake Conniving Poor if she got sanctioned for missing an appointment or told she was fit to work while in a hospital bed on oxygen. "They have to be tough because of all the scroungers, and then honest hardworking people like me get punished by mistake!" I've heard it depressingly often.

Berksandbeyond i don't think anyone living on benefits is living a lavish lifestyle. Some won't be able to afford a holiday and some will manage to save over time for a holiday.

We've been flat out unemployed and on benefits, worked and claimed UC, and currently earn just enough not to qualify for any help.

I know what I'd prefer.

The crippling anxiety, poverty and stigma of not being able to work and relying on a punitive benefits system was the hardest time of my life and truly awful. Those benefits are there for when people are at their lowest but the system only serves to make you lower. Given enough to only be hungry not actually starve, but be degraded, talked down to, derided and made to jump through pointless hoops when you're already at your wits end. Being that poor is time consuming and exhausting. It's enough to make anyone turn to drink or drugs frankly.

Doing part time / low wage work is a bit better. You have a bit more control, a few more choices. You're out of the house more which lowers bills. Sometimes you're left with no choice but to play the system because the margins are so tiny (eg local housing allowance being so much lower than the cheapest market rent). Sometimes, between paying for childcare, the threshold for council tax reductions and the minimum income floor, you can't afford to work those extra two days for a few quid that month because it could make you £100s of pounds worse of next month. That flaw is in the system not in people who are trying to survive as best they can. It's a flaw caused by a system that is designed to punish people.

We are now both working full time. Joint income (2 adults with one child to support) about 50k. We get no help. We just about meet our (very prudent, minimal) outgoings with few treats. It's hard work. But we have stability, we're in control of our finances and don't live under the threat of a random decision by the DWP risking us being suddenly plunged into debt, turfed out of our house, colder, hungry, relying on family and holding our head in our hands wondering how the hell we can escape the trap.

We have a child - only one because we can't afford more. Your kindly donation, through the tax system, has meant they haven't starved or been ill because of damp, unsafe housing, family breakdown and crisis. It's given DC a roof over their head and an education. All of which is cheaper for the tax payer than a homeless, starving, ill person with no education. And their future wages will pay your pension.

So YABVU. You have no experience of what it's like to walk in other people's shoes. Your judgement is crass, and lacks any awareness of very well researched and evidenced issues. Do some bloody reading OP.

I was you once op. I worked for 30 years with only 6 months off maternity leave in all that time.
Then my life changed overnight. I'm now disabled and have been awarded pip ongoing with no end date. It wasnt nice reading the summary saying that in their opinion I will never recover so there is no point doing further assessments.
I would much rather be back at work and not claiming benefits. After all those years working, all I'm entitled to is pip because I managed to save too much for my old age to be entitled to means tested benefits. That's fine by me though. My savings will last me 3 years if I'm careful then ill have no choice other than to claim uc

Interesting geographical comparison- Africa is lumped together when the other countries are all separated

The Caribbean is also made up of several different countries.

Do you want to come and live in the US where there is little or no safety net?

The British safety net - such as it is - is there for you should you ever need it. In the meantime, you've made a lifestyle choice that means you haven't yet drawn benefits that are available to others - you have no children.

You don't know whether the day will come when you have a stroke or your luck in employment runs out. Entire industries have disappeared in the space of a few years. Similarly, many a single mother has found herself living a life that is very different from the one she thought she was going to.

Social welfare payments are very low in the UK. This contributes to the low wage economy. Salaries are far higher in many European countries including next door in the rep. of Ireland, benefits are also much higher in rep. of Ireland, and productivity overall is much higher. If generous benefits were the problem- surely rep. of Ireland would be much worse off?

The way it works is, benefits are low and unreliable here so companies can pay a pittance and still be more than benefits. In fact you can get paid benefits while working so the government essentially subsidises the profits of big companies who pay wages to low to live on. So Tesco can have people working full time or almost full time, and this still won’t be enough to cover the basics in life often (rent, food, clothing, entertainment, adequate time with family and friends). If the government tripled benefits tomorrow, then Tesco would have to pay more to attract workers, and your pay would go up too as a knock on effect.

Add to the poor working conditions and low minimum wage the fact the the state offers little in the way of state childcare, elder care, and often inadequate healthcare and then you have people who might otherwise be working full time taking care of relatives, or dealing with their own poorly managed chronic illnesses instead. This limits earning power and productivity.

My point is, there is no reason for it to be this way. Plenty of countries do it differently and people are far better off. The problem is not lazy scroungers taking advantage of the system, while virtuous people like you keep it all afloat, the problem is the government is facilitating the extraction of wealth from all of us to big corporations like amazon, Tesco, Google, BP, all the public transport companies etc. Think about the fact that energy crisis is happening across Europe l yet the prices aren’t going up everywhere equally. The UK solution is to transfer money to us so we can all pay the insane bills from the energy companies who are making record profits due to the fact the government won’t tax them enough or regulate them enough to make sure we get reasonable energy prices even in times of uncertainty. Furlough scheme was similar, it was the companies who were the ultimate winners, sure people got to keep their jobs which was good but it would have been more efficient to pay people directly probably, and it would have covered the self employed far better.

You are right to be angry, but I think you have the wrong target.

The whole point of having a welfare state (of sorts) isn’t that you should try to take out more than you put in and feel aggrieved if you are putting in more than you take out.

Think of it as (1) like an insurance policy - better to pay the premium and not need it, but be happy it is there is if you are in need; and (2) the country is generally a better place with a certain degree of wealth redistribution - not having a large starving underclass of people living in misery is generally a good thing for everyone.

I've never had to claim benefits thank god.
I have benefited from the NHS. Ground breaking heart surgery as a child, 3 births, a hysterectomy. 3 kids educated for free. Having just sat and watched my db die in USA free healthcare at the point of need is huge.
I understand how you feel but honestly do not underate what help you might need.

everyone is focusing on the benefits issue but the OP is correct in her comments about single working low wage people struggling with no help/top ups and having to afford rent, bills, food etc themselves. It’s impossible.

Such lack of self-awareness... Mortgage? Well, nice for you!! Sell up, ensure no money is left in the pot, get your sweet family on Universal Credit and see what housing/money security you ever get.

Fancy paying your landlord's mortgage for the rest of your lives??

So you think most single parents are enjoying a good life raising children alone with a low income and child tax credit? Children are a job even if you are married. A huge commitment plus not c heap. You know nothing op.