To think there is little incentive to work hard in the UK

[BeachTree]

Context. 30's, no kids, single, work full time.

Just a bit disheartened. I have never claimed benefits, or any type of support, I work hard to make sure I can support myself (Not disputing those who genuinely require benefits/support) I have always paid all my taxes, and national insurance. I expect by the time I reach retirement age, the 'state pension' may look very different to what it does now and may not be available despite having paid in my whole life.

I feel sometimes that I pay so much into the 'system' and get very little return and don't 'take' from it, whereas there are many people claiming every benefit possible, and constantly 'taking' from the system they don't pay into. There are so many ways to extract money from the system but only for those who don't work full time. I know someone who worked for about 1 or 2 year in late teens in the UK, then worked abroad for a number of years, during this time did not keep up with national insurance payments and obviously not paying UK tax as no in the country, also didn't pay tax in the country they resided in. Returned to England to have a baby on the NHS, now residing back in England, claiming benefits as a single parent for 2+ years, gets assistance with rent council tax etc despite having paid next to nothing in to the system. I cannot compute how this is fair.

For example the cost of living payment, people who claim benefits will get £650, where as those who work and do not claim benefits will get £400. The cost of living crisis affects all of us - perhaps more so the people who work their socks off and aren't 'entitled' to 'support' The system is backwards and not in favour of people who work full time to support our ridiculous benefit system. So many examples - ie. people get help with rent, council tax, working tax credits etc etc etc - however those who work get zero, zilch.

AIBU?

What is this? Has MN suddenly become a branch of Conservative Home with all these goady right wing posts?
I worked hard because I have a work ethic not because I sat calculating what the system 'owes' me

Then they can't be being IS. That stops when youngest is 5.
Why are they getting so much over the benefit cap? Do they/dc have disabilities?

@Completelyovernonsense It is simply not true that everyone on benefits genuinely needs them. And I say that as someone from a family where there are generations of worklessness.

My own parents very rarely worked despite being able to and probably claimed a significant amount in benefits due to having a large family, and a lot of that money was usually squandered on cigarettes/alcohol etc.

I am fortunate that I didn't repeat that cycle and have always worked, never claimed benefits and have made a good life for myself. But the same isn't true for some of my siblings who also have never worked and claim benefits despite being able to work.

I probably have a better understanding than many of how people can get trapped in the cycles of worklessness, but I do feel like the benefits system makes it easy for that to happen to those who are less motivated to break the cycle.

Oh and these aren’t just acquaintances, one is my best friend of 30 years, so I know her financial ins and outs very well, she’s very open

Some best friend you are, airing her financial ins and outs on SM. Does she know you are doing this or is she too busy choosing her next Stella McCartney piece/going to Dubai/generally living it up to care?

@foxandbee I think it was something like this www.suitedbootedcentre.org.uk/

But the scheme my friend accessed was run by RBKC. She made a tidy sum selling the bits on Vestiaire Collective.

It’s a great scheme if it does help someone back into work. My friend will not go above 16 hours though as she’s be less well off financially. I don’t blame her. The system is the issue. Work needs to pay (better than benefits, at least!).

Agree with PP that the squeezed middle, on 25-40k are the ones worst off. Not enough to live on (in London, esp with DC) but too much to access help.

It is really easy to see how people get stuck in the benefits cycle. Like I say £2500 is a 40k salary after tax.

I do know people who are on legacy benefits. As in CTC/WTC still. I have also seen people with no benefits cap due to disability claiming the equivalent of a 60k salary.

I am a socialist at heart. Polar opposite views to most people in our income bracket. However, the people who earn 20-40k are left behind. It’s hard to see the incentive for them to work tbh, if they have children. There is no way of spinning or. To the people who just “miss out” on top up support, they are often the ones who struggle the most.

Actually you pay a shedload for healthcare in taxes in the US. Someone has to fund medicare, medicaid, veterans healthcare, public hospitals. In fact the public $$$ spent in the US are broadly equal to that of the UK. The difference is that it does not entitle you to healthcare for the most part (unless you are old enough to be on medicare, poor enough - i.e. bare bones of your ass - for medicaid or veteran). You're paying for others' public health care and THEN need to fork out for your own private healthcare. Your inlaws have paid just as much as you have in tax for publicly funded healthcare. They then need to pay their premiums, copays, deductibles etc.

Can we have an A-MEN
Some really hard of thinking, goady, resentful people on here. Who mostly like to play the victim - 'ooh, you're so right, but we're the persecuted ones'
No. You're just ignorant.

@BlaseBalletDancer

I agree.

NHS costs us £10,000 per household. I could get fantastic private insurance for less than that. Not allowed to opt out of NI though.

Link, for those interested:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/23/uks-runaway-health-spending-costs-10k-per-household-produces/

I’m just sharing facts. Not passing judgement. Good for her! Wouldn’t you try to access the best lifestyle possible for you and your DC?

@BlaseBalletDancer

We actually have the situation where a lot of people end up paying twice for healthcare - once through general taxation and once again privately for the conditions that the NHS misses or refuses to treat within a reasonable time. That is appalling.

Ugh this is like people who moan about being made to pay the license fee because they also pay for Sky+. The NHS is a public good, you are not paying for 'your healthcare' through general taxation, you are paying for a good level of basic care to be available free to anyone in society at point of need. Unfortunately it is funded and staffed so badly the system is creaking now, which means that 'basic standard' is not really being met anymore. But it's still a damn sight better than people being bankrupted by their long term conditions.

Thanks, @wellhelloitsme, will look into that. It’s so expensive with all my prescriptions!!

And @FreyaStorm , I know this is no consolation- when others get more for doing f all- but you should be proud of what you have achieved without help and providing a great example to your child. I have no children and couldn’t afford them anyway, so I respect you so much for managing a job and parenthood. I promise you that your child will appreciate the example you give. You sound like a hard-working, decent person.

My mother was deserted by my deadbeat father who was/is fairly well off (great career) and she brought us up while nursing on night shifts. Back then it was not easy to get any benefits as a single mum (not compared to these days). She has her issues but I admire her greatly for doing that. My father? Not so much.

I think there are always going to be people like this sadly. Could be underlying MH issues or just plain laziness. Nobody really knows. Either way, I would prefer not to work with someone who really didn't want to be there. Makes your workplace less productive, probably costs more money than paying benefits. It's the same with paying people a pittance to live on who are on benefits. The impact on physical and mental health probably costs the government more in the long run.

My main issue is that aside from maternity leave, I have worked FT pretty much with young kids and am still renting. It has put enormous stress on us as a family. Probably impacted my health too. Just poured all my wages into a childcare provider pretty much. Pre-Tory, the government enabled one parent to go part time through top ups, or you could work FT to build wealth and have a decent standard of living, but now we have both parents working FT only to still struggle. I just want to be treated the same as the generation that got this help. Its the ageism of this government that bothers me. They don't give a shit about anyone under the age of 60.

And before anyone mentions the magic money tree. I think we can all safely say our government find it very easily to provide their cronies with dubious contracts and for their vanity projects. They can find it to take a private plane at the tax payers expense too. So that is not a sound argument.

YABU. I'm 30yrs old. Spent my 20s being a high earner paying sickening amounts into the system, I now work (full time) for the ambulance service, am a single parent and claim UC. Because if I don't I can't live! I qualify for the £650 payment and I work full time so your information is incorrect.
What is the alternative? Kids starving and dying? Life on benefits alone is a shit life otherwise you'd pack your job in and live off them, but the reality is for those unable to work it is a pathetic amount of money to "live on".
You will always get people abusing the system but they are the exception not the rule.

@notyetpregnant 'It is simply not true that everyone on benefits genuinely needs them. And I say that as someone from a family where there are generations of worklessness.

My own parents very rarely worked despite being able to and probably claimed a significant amount in benefits due to having a large family, and a lot of that money was usually squandered on cigarettes/alcohol etc.'

So your post is interesting - In your case you DID genuinely need benefits, your parents weren't working for whatever reason, you as a kid would have suffered. The UK social and benefits system meant that you and your siblings had an education, had healthcare and had a roof over your head and food. Your basic needs met.
Maybe, in your case, your parents would have got off their arses and worked if they had no choice, but more likely they wouldn't have and you kids would have suffered more.

YANBU. I think a lot of people on Mumsnet are supportive of those on long term benefits because they live in their middle class bubble and don’t actually know anyone that can’t be arsed to work.

The whole system needs a massive overhaul. Employers need to be made to pay a true living wage so that there’s no need for top up benefits.

There needs to be universal free child care for all rather than free if you don’t work but paid for if you do (and yes I do understand the reasons for free nursery places).

There needs to be a massive push in schools to teach children work/ life/ budgeting skills and show some that there’s more to life than the estate that they spend their whole life on. Make it a subject in its own right rather than a few lessons. There’s children now who are growing up as the 4th generation to only know a benefits lifestyle and if you believe that there isn’t, you haven’t looked very far.

Increase the amount of school hours jobs or (controversially) increase the school day and pay teachers and support staff accordingly.

Charge everyone for prescriptions, dental care and eye tests which would allow them to charge a much lower price for everyone. It’s not fair that many working people have to forgo these completely as they can’t afford them while others get them for free.

It would probably take a few generations to make changes but surely it would be worth it for everyone in the long run.

My DM and MIL are similar ages. Both worked most of their lives at fairly low paid jobs. Both on state pensions. Difference is my mum saved and now has to pay £550 per month for retirement flat she is in. My MIL knows how to play the system and has a brand new LA 2 bed bungalow, a disability car (gold convertable anyone) and honestly has money coming from everywhere.

it’s the inequality that is galling, MIL wanted wardrobes so got a company in and had them installed at £1,400. My mum needed wardrobes and bought flat pack and me and DSIS spent all day building the bloody things. Both DM and MIL wear varifocals, DM are £400 a pair, MIL gets them free.

My mum is upset because eventually her money is going to run out and she is going to have to claim housing benefit, which distresses her. My MIL’s attitude is that “I paid in for years, why shouldn’t I claim”. DH has pointed out that whatever she paid in won’t account for 1% of what she’s had out but she thinks there is a magic porridge pot that prints money.

Sorry for rambling. Gets my goat sometimes!

It astonishes me that people who seem to have enough in their lives, like OP, to live, pay bills, eat, do what they want are resentful towards people who need help or aren't in as good a financial position whether that's from poor choices, poor starts in life, health reasons etc.
We're one of the richest economies in the world. We should be able to look after the health of our population, feed our children, educate and look after everyone.
Op - perhaps you should spend less time looking at what other people have and appreciate what you have.

My husband used to have Italian business partners and they one said the UK is the best country to be poor in, not so great for those in the middle.

@NellesVilla Thank you for your kind message. Your mum did amazingly. It is very sad that you felt you couldn’t afford DC. I felt and put them off for 15 years to save as much as I could to buy a flat. I have one now but can’t afford another.

Deadbeat fathers are as much of a problem as the system. If I don’t judge my 3 friends for choosing not to work, I will judge them on the type of men they chose to have children with. It was obvious from day 1 these men would not be sticking around or “providing”. Had they chosen better fathers for their DC they probably wouldn’t be on benefits and their DC would have stable fatherly influences. Alas, they all only fancy a certain “type” of man and that sealed their fate.

I would guess you have the freedom to move, change jobs - can you look into that.
I think your view is shared by many - how can you improve your income.

@NelStevHan I think it is partly a result of the gutter press pushing the narrative that the undeserving poor get "free" stuff while everyone else has to slog for it.

There are of course people who play the benefits system, but most don't and anyway is is mich harder to do tgese days. Playing of the tax system is a far bigger problem.

I have no children, my partner and I both work full time and have never claimed benefits.
I am delighted to live in a society with a welfare system that supports those who need it, and to be in the fortunate position to currently put in more than I take out.
My great grandfather died suddenly leaving my great grandmother with 5 young children, no benefits to be claimed, no support. She had to pack her youngest off to boarding school so she could work 3 jobs. Not a preferable situation, to my mind.

It boils my piss that mostly men have a family then pay the absolute minimum for their children.