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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the NHS will eventually have to be privatised ?

401 replies

Felixsmama · 25/07/2022 10:23

When the NHS was founded 1 in 2 people died before the age of 65. It's now 1 in 8, the last 10 years of people's lives can be spent with multiple co-morbid conditions which are expensive to treat and keep under control. The NHS wasn't designed for what it's not having to do, we have an aging population. Shouldn't we start to have conversations about what going forward our health service should look like? There's multiple models not just the US one.

OP posts:
Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:03

rusticaflores · 25/07/2022 14:54

Lots of these types of threads popping up recently.

It's really quite simple. OF COURSE the Tories want the NHS privatised. That's why they've been running it into the ground for 12 years!!

People who disagree with that can throw stats around all they like - but the difference is clear to see. Up until about 10 years ago, I could get a referral and have tests within 4 months at most. Fast forward to now (even pre covid), I have been told the wait is over a year just to get to see a consultant for what is a very life-altering gynae problem (women's healthcare is seen as even less important). A member of my family who suffered extreme trauma waited 2 years to access mental health care, was given some youtube videos 'in the meantime'. This is repeated across the board.

You can see it here on MN, where people are often advised to pay privately for x,y,z because of the wait times. What about those on a low income who don't even have that option?

I'm a floating voter too, I don't have any skin in this game other than despondency at what people are allowing to happen as if it's an inevitability.

Lots of other countries have a fully funded universal healthcare system. Do they not also have aging populations? How come their systems work?

More of our tax needs spent on the most important thing - healthcare.

If "more of our tax needs to be spent on healthcare", what other public services are you happy to cut?

A few thousand less police officers?

A few hundred fewer fire stations?

Council bin collections monthly instead of bi-weekly?

Or ever increasing taxes? Don't forget Brown/Blair increased NIC twice "to save the NHS" - well it didn't did it? The billions raised just went into the leaky bucket called the NHS!

Notlabeled · 25/07/2022 15:03

Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:03

If "more of our tax needs to be spent on healthcare", what other public services are you happy to cut?

A few thousand less police officers?

A few hundred fewer fire stations?

Council bin collections monthly instead of bi-weekly?

Or ever increasing taxes? Don't forget Brown/Blair increased NIC twice "to save the NHS" - well it didn't did it? The billions raised just went into the leaky bucket called the NHS!

100% tax is 100% virtuous comrade.

thejall · 25/07/2022 15:05

This reply has been deleted

Quotes a deleted post

antelopevalley · 25/07/2022 15:06

Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:03

If "more of our tax needs to be spent on healthcare", what other public services are you happy to cut?

A few thousand less police officers?

A few hundred fewer fire stations?

Council bin collections monthly instead of bi-weekly?

Or ever increasing taxes? Don't forget Brown/Blair increased NIC twice "to save the NHS" - well it didn't did it? The billions raised just went into the leaky bucket called the NHS!

I am happy to cut government corruption and contracts to dodgy mates. Government initiatives to boost house prices. Free ports and similar - they do not work and are simply backhanders. HS2.

Discovereads · 25/07/2022 15:06

antelopevalley · 25/07/2022 13:01

What you are talking about is rationing through the ability to pay. Be upfront about this.
You are suggesting a basic level of NHS care, then anything else people pay for based on whether they can afford it or not.

Exactly. Currently demand is restricted through rationing based on medical need. Hence waitlists and certain surgeries not being covered by the NHS. @Crazykatie is suggesting that demand instead be restricted based on means tests which we know results in a society where only the better off can get healthcare.

Notlabeled · 25/07/2022 15:07

This reply has been deleted

Quotes a deleted post

I'm not the one getting enraged when it's pointed out the NHS blames fatties for it's problems.

dreamingbohemian · 25/07/2022 15:07

Notlabeled · 25/07/2022 14:59

I was in Sweden last month for 3 weeks. Almost no fat people, and smoking is rarely seen as they all use Snus.

Wow, 3 whole weeks??

'Around 50 % of adults in Sweden are overweight or obese.'
Source: Public Health Agency of Sweden tinyurl.com/2bl6xkx4

Also 50% of adults in France are overweight or obese
France obviously for many years had very high rates of smoking and alcoholism

It's simply ridiculous to say you can't have socialist health care unless the population is super healthy to begin with. I have lived in France and Germany, I can assure you there are loads of people in both who absolutely do not take good care of themselves.

Discovereads · 25/07/2022 15:08

thejall · 25/07/2022 14:55

If we treat people who drink too much, smoke, take drugs, do high risk sports, drive too fast, commit crime, etc then we can't single out obesity imo.

Don’t forget all those people that chose to get pregnant- about the most expensive and risky thing you can do healthcare wise.

thejall · 25/07/2022 15:09

@Notlabeled I'm not rattled at all... I just disagree obesity is the only issue in the NHS & I pointed out your contradiction of criticising another poster for conflating obesity & disability.

Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:12

Notlabeled · 25/07/2022 15:02

Illness like cancer and heart disease.

Pressed post to soon

Most cancers aren't related to obesity. Many don't have any "causes" at all and just happen for no clear reason. It's a very slippery slope to start blaming obesity for everything.

You get to the stage where non obese people ignore their body telling them something's wrong because they're conditioned into thinking cancer/heart disease/diabetes only happens to the obese. That's then compounded by health professionals with the same attitude and ignoring the blindingly obvious when the patient sat in front of them doesn't smoke, isn't obese, etc etc.

It's what happened to my OH and his cancer, which has no known causes. He had multiple appointments with various different GPs. He has a "clean" life, healthy weight, lots of exercise, never smoked, barely drinks, so in theory should live a long healthy life, and that flummoxed the GP given his complaints of bone pain, headaches, bruising, etc. Once we had the diagnosis and checked online for symptoms it was blindingly obvious as he could tick all the boxes. But one of the GPs we saw later admitted he didn't even consider this form of cancer because it was so rare in someone so young and healthy! Luckily, it was a locum GP who twigged what it was likely to be and asked for a special kind of blood test which came back with crazily high levels of a particular blood protein and referred him to oncology fast tracked. Haematologist said it was one of the highest levels she'd seen and had doubts as to whether the chemotherapy would work to bring things back under control. In the event, she was also very surprised how quickly the treatment worked and how quickly those protein levels fall back down, from over a hundred to less than 1 in just 3 months, whereas the usual first tier treatment is 6-9 months to get levels back under 10! Luckily, the treatment worked well because he was otherwise fit and healthy!

thejall · 25/07/2022 15:15

@Kazzyhoward my mil has had breast & bowel cancer. Very healthy diet & lower BMI. She developed high blood pressure in her 30s after a pregnancy which as @Discovereads said is not without risk.

MissConductUS · 25/07/2022 15:21

Most cancers aren't related to obesity. Many don't have any "causes" at all and just happen for no clear reason.

Correct. It's innate to our biology.

Why Cancer Isn’t Going Anywhere - It’s been with us since the origins of multicellularity. It’s part of who we are

XingMing · 25/07/2022 15:24

I think the NHS will have to change, and that the least painful way of changing it to preserve it may be to impose some ceilings on its remit. Clearly, emergency and acute care would remain sacrosanct. Paediatrics, likewise: it would be a false economy to neglect children's healthcare, because society will pay a much higher price later. Maternity care too, for the same reasons.

There should be a modest charge to see a GP (last time we had to see a doctor in France some years ago it was 15 euro) but this could be waived for those receiving UC or pension credit. Beyond this, I feel it is reasonable to expect able-bodied employed people to take out insurance to top up their medical expectations and also to take more responsibility for their own health.

We need much better social care for the elderly, but how it's to be funded requires a grown up discussion of what % of assets individuals must contribute from such resources as they have. The cottage hospitals and convalescence units need to come back to bridge the discharge gap between acute and residential care.

And at some stage, there needs to be a conversation about how much medical intervention is appropriate for the truly geriatric, aged 75 plus. This is less than 10 years off for me. Comfort, always but the experience of ventilating very elderly patients during COVID demonstrated that the benefits were limited where there were chronic conditions.

Staff shortages are another thing. I don't think HCP should be charged tuition fees during training, but I do think there should be a required period of (paid) service to the NHS equivalent or related to the length of training.

Obviously, five paragraphs is hardly enough to scratch the surface, before anyone says that all this is superficial/inadequate/unjust/unaffordable.

DdraigGoch · 25/07/2022 15:24

The thing is that a monolith like the NHS is a very efficient way of achieving results. It had a virtual monopoly so could buy goods and labour very cheaply. Half-baked reforms like the Internal Market have reduced this efficiency but it was still the case until the mid-2000s that we got a second-rate service for a third-rate price.

Now the price paid from the Exchequer has risen to second-rate, but the outcomes have dropped to third-rate. Maybe the old way was never sustainable, and was just living on borrowed time.

Labour is much more mobile than it used to be so the NHS now competes with foreign healthcare providers for HCPs, and as it doesn't offer competitive rates of pay it is forever shedding staff as they move abroad. This increases the training budget, as well as putting more pressure on the remaining staff who burn out and leave.

We also have the pressure of an aging population. The fallacy behind the NHS was that it would pay for itself as improvements in living conditions reduced the cost of disease. In reality as life expectancy got older they just encountered new maladies. Dementia replaced measles.

The other big cost to the Exchequer is the state pension:

In 1908 your husband (or you if you were a single woman) had to be over 70 for you to get a state pension. This was paid at 5s/week for a singleton or 7s 6d for a couple (£20 or £30 per week at current prices so even if you lived rent-free many people would not have been able to afford to eat without additional support). Life expectancy was 40 years on average so only a quarter of the population ever reached that age, and those who did were more likely to be wealthier and wouldn't therefore have been eligible as it was means-tested.

The state pension as we know it was introduced in 1948, and started at 60 for women, and 65 for men (the discrepancy purely being down to wanting couples to retire together, wives usually being younger than their husbands). Despite the lower age threshold and removal of the means testing, half of the population still weren't living long enough to claim it. The rate was set at £1 6s to begin with, equivalent to £57.66 today. Better, but still only enough to scrape a living on.

Fast forward 50 years, people are living longer (15 years past state pension age on average) and it has been recognised that the rate at which it is paid needs to be raised to actually cover the cost of living. It now stands at £185.15/week. The birth rate has declined over several decades so the cost of servicing this falls upon a much smaller tax base. Said small tax base is also paying for the healthcare burden of the aging population, which brings us back to the earlier issue.

So what can be done?

  • Privatising the NHS won't save anything because it will lose the economies of scale the current system has.
  • Means testing may cost more than it saves.
  • People are however staying fit enough to continue working for longer, so the state pension age is going up, and should go up further to 70, with specific provision made for those who are no longer fit enough to work.
  • National insurance should be absorbed into income tax, the code for the latter should be simplified to remove the loopholes and reduce administration costs.
  • Inheritance Tax. Not popular but you can't take your assets with you. It's a tax that no one actually pays. Reduce the thresholds, and close some of the loopholes (the agricultural relief is important for allowing family farms to be passed down, but it also allows millionaires to have an asset they can avoid paying tax on, so put a cap on the value of land it covers).
  • We need to look at what sort of services should be available for free, be prepared to make co-payments towards some things, and lose all state support for others.
  • Ditch the Internal Market.
antelopevalley · 25/07/2022 15:28

XingMing · 25/07/2022 15:24

I think the NHS will have to change, and that the least painful way of changing it to preserve it may be to impose some ceilings on its remit. Clearly, emergency and acute care would remain sacrosanct. Paediatrics, likewise: it would be a false economy to neglect children's healthcare, because society will pay a much higher price later. Maternity care too, for the same reasons.

There should be a modest charge to see a GP (last time we had to see a doctor in France some years ago it was 15 euro) but this could be waived for those receiving UC or pension credit. Beyond this, I feel it is reasonable to expect able-bodied employed people to take out insurance to top up their medical expectations and also to take more responsibility for their own health.

We need much better social care for the elderly, but how it's to be funded requires a grown up discussion of what % of assets individuals must contribute from such resources as they have. The cottage hospitals and convalescence units need to come back to bridge the discharge gap between acute and residential care.

And at some stage, there needs to be a conversation about how much medical intervention is appropriate for the truly geriatric, aged 75 plus. This is less than 10 years off for me. Comfort, always but the experience of ventilating very elderly patients during COVID demonstrated that the benefits were limited where there were chronic conditions.

Staff shortages are another thing. I don't think HCP should be charged tuition fees during training, but I do think there should be a required period of (paid) service to the NHS equivalent or related to the length of training.

Obviously, five paragraphs is hardly enough to scratch the surface, before anyone says that all this is superficial/inadequate/unjust/unaffordable.

So anyone not on universal credit has to pay for all but emergency care and children's care?
The result would be A and E would be chock a block with people who can not afford to pay healthcare costs. All insurance companies have co-pays or excesses. And people like me would drop our hours so we were on UC. My DP would need to stop working, his healthcare would be too expensive.

Rewis · 25/07/2022 15:29

I'd vote for hybrid systems. Public affordable helsthcare (not sue if it has to be free, but affordable). Sensible cost of insurance so a private working citizen can afford it. Workplaces having occupational health in private hospitals that employees can use for the basics.

Grantanow · 25/07/2022 15:29

Privatisation by the Tories would simply enable their rich friends to siphon off profits, cut services and avoid investment as has happened in the water and gas storage operations. The NHS needs improving but wholesale privatisation is not the solution. Buying in services may be useful. The French system seems to work well but doctors there are not as well-paid as in the UK.

antelopevalley · 25/07/2022 15:37

Rewis · 25/07/2022 15:29

I'd vote for hybrid systems. Public affordable helsthcare (not sue if it has to be free, but affordable). Sensible cost of insurance so a private working citizen can afford it. Workplaces having occupational health in private hospitals that employees can use for the basics.

This will not happen under the conservatives. It will simply be a way for them to cream off vast profits to their friends.
Most people work in small companies. Most could not afford to find healthcare without reducing wages. You do know if this happened your nursery costs would soar as nurseries have to pay for healthcare for staff.
We currently have free NHS healthcare.
Private healthcare for those who want it.
Some employers providing varying levels of private healthcare.

Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:39

@DdraigGoch

National insurance should be absorbed into income tax, the code for the latter should be simplified to remove the loopholes and reduce administration costs.

Absolutely. I've been saying this for years. NIC is a stupid system. It's only the "workers" who pay it at all, and even lots of "workers" still get NIC credits without ever paying a penny in NIC (i.e. low paid, multiple part time jobs, etc). There's no NIC on rental income, dividends, interest, pension, foreign income etc. So the majority of people, don't pay any NIC at particular points in their life when they happen not to have earnings from working in a single job over the threshold. It's a complete nonsense system.

It's basically because neither of the main parties have the balls to increase income tax as they think the media and voters are too stupid to understand that NIC is just another tax.

For the past 20 years, the increasing tax burden has fallen mostly on the shoulders of the workers, the very people we need as they're the ones who grow the economy. We shouldn't be forever subsidising (by not increasing their tax) those living on investment income, pensions, etc., many of whom are easily able to pay a bit more tax!

So, yes, scrap NIC, increase income tax instead, and then the burden will be spread over more people (millions more), rather than yet again on the workers.

Notlabeled · 25/07/2022 15:41

Why is It everyone on MN has someone with an chronic illness with no underlying causes? Same with Covid. It killed old fat people but MN anecdotes meant only healthy 20 year old fitness freaks got it.

The simple truth is, one the fattest, unhealthiest nations on earth is struggling to pay to keep these people alive in old age.

Either we get healthier and reduce the NHS burden or we each pay according to our risk profile whether privately or through taxes.

Anything else is just noise.

Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:47

@antelopevalley

Most people work in small companies. Most could not afford to find healthcare without reducing wages.

I've never worked in a large company, every single one of my employers (7 in total) have been small, the biggest had around 30 staff. In all but one, we had BUPA or similar along with a pension scheme and life insurance. The costs for group schemes is A LOT cheaper than for individual/family policies - that's the nature of insurance, you spread the risks and spread the costs. In my last employment, I'd reached board level so was the person responsible for the health, pension and life insurance schemes - I was pleasantly surprised just how cheap it was.

thejall · 25/07/2022 15:48

There's no NIC on rental income, dividends, interest, pension, foreign income etc.

agree that tax isn't fairly spread.

antelopevalley · 25/07/2022 15:49

Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:47

@antelopevalley

Most people work in small companies. Most could not afford to find healthcare without reducing wages.

I've never worked in a large company, every single one of my employers (7 in total) have been small, the biggest had around 30 staff. In all but one, we had BUPA or similar along with a pension scheme and life insurance. The costs for group schemes is A LOT cheaper than for individual/family policies - that's the nature of insurance, you spread the risks and spread the costs. In my last employment, I'd reached board level so was the person responsible for the health, pension and life insurance schemes - I was pleasantly surprised just how cheap it was.

Maybe you are in a very skilled industry?
I have worked in small companies for years and never had private health insurance.
Everywhere has pension schemes though and life insurance is common as it is very cheap for working aged people.

Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:49

Notlabeled · 25/07/2022 15:41

Why is It everyone on MN has someone with an chronic illness with no underlying causes? Same with Covid. It killed old fat people but MN anecdotes meant only healthy 20 year old fitness freaks got it.

The simple truth is, one the fattest, unhealthiest nations on earth is struggling to pay to keep these people alive in old age.

Either we get healthier and reduce the NHS burden or we each pay according to our risk profile whether privately or through taxes.

Anything else is just noise.

We'd certainly pay more re risk profiles if we went down an insurance route, and rightly so. Those who put themselves into higher risk categories without good reason should rightly pay more. It may cause them to rethink their unhealthy lifestyles if they could see cause and consequence in terms of their insurance premiums!

antelopevalley · 25/07/2022 15:54

Kazzyhoward · 25/07/2022 15:49

We'd certainly pay more re risk profiles if we went down an insurance route, and rightly so. Those who put themselves into higher risk categories without good reason should rightly pay more. It may cause them to rethink their unhealthy lifestyles if they could see cause and consequence in terms of their insurance premiums!

How ell has that worked in the US? Has it made people thinner? Or stopped people becoming addicted to drugs?
Nope. Lots of obesity and communities ravaged by drug addiction.

All you do is kill people.
Admit it. You only want people who can afford it to have healthcare. If you are poor, then tough. And if you are okay off but get an expensive to treat illness like cancer, then tough.

And people who are disabled are the biggest users of healthcare.