To think someone could have helped Sebastian

[Lozzerbmc]

Im so upset at what happened to this 15 yr boy orginally from Poland living in Yorkshire, whose mother and stepfather have been found guilty of killing him after months of torture that they captured on video. We’ve seen this so much in recent years and its so heartbreaking. I know these are manipulative monsters who are so good at covering up their abuse so it escapes notice and victims so scared they cant turn to anyone for fear of making it worse for themselves.

I wish we could do better, these are not cases where a parent has gone mad and randomly killed their child, its mostly prolonged abuse over a lengthy period. I know its all about money and lack of resources. It just makes me so sad. What could we do to stop this happening?

I'm sorry but to me, your post doesn't read well. I'm hopeful you didn't mean it the way it sounds.

What’s your issue with that post Winter?

The slight whiff of "well he'd have grown up to be abusive himself so it isn't that much of a tragedy"?

@WinterMusings it doesn't matter whether my post 'reads well' to you or not. The article I read was based on facts: that statistically an abused child is more likely to become an abuser them self than a child who hasn't suffered abuse.

The article really hit home. Of course every situation where an innocent child who is abused is horrendous. The article highlighted the cyclical nature of it and how the only real solutions can come from tackling that.

No, it can’t be that because that’s not what that poster said. They said abuse is cyclical so we need to break the cycle. Not ‘thank god that baby was brutally murdered’.

What I don’t understand is the poor lad was constantly being beaten, with a bed board, having pins stuck in him, but no neighbours heard anything?

From the pictures of the house they lived in, it was at least a semi, if not terraced. Nobody heard him being beaten or screaming in pain?

There is a lot of focus on his school but if there was nothing visible (sick bastards probably made sure of that) and he didn’t disclose anything to anyone, there wasn’t a lot they could do and even if they had made a vague referral to SS it wouldn’t have gone anywhere. He was at secondary school where they’re moving around between different teachers all day so not much chance to get to know individual pupils when they have so many different year groups especially since there was a large chunk of time that schools were closed due to Covid, over that the ten months he was there. Not like primary where they are with the same teacher for the majority of the time.

@RaspberryParfait neighbours out/away? Tv or music on loud? Could be any number of reasons. And we don't know how loudly the poor boy screamed - particularly if screaming made the abusers worse. Often these sick abusers know how to manipulate and carry out abuse so it's hidden, maybe at times when they know they won't be noticed. Also, we don't know what face the step father and the mother presented to their neighbours. I imagine they painted Sebastian as difficult, stroppy, disobedient, and themselves as firm but strict parents who were just keeping him in line

Reading local press from Yorkshire neighbours thought the step-dad was on steroids. He was a very intimidating man. But they didn't notice any signs of abuse on Sebastian. He'd come and go with his head down but they presumed he was just showing usual teenage behaviour. One neighbour even said she was unaware a child was in the house (?).

I think being Sebastian was a very lonely, isolating experience and he didn't know how to ask for help in a strange country with a different language and culture. It's so so sad.

It was an article about Baby P, and the writer was basically saying, 'we're all crying over this photo of Baby P, an innocent toddler. The reality is that if he hadn't been killed, there's a strong chance he'd have grown up to become an abuser himself.

The reality also is that he would have had problems in school, emotional difficulties, problems with learning, possibly aggressive or violent behaviours through primary and secondary school.

It’s fine to look at a small child and think “I’d have taken him”, but the reality of caring for a child traumatised in infancy is very, very different - they carry that trauma with them and need a huge amount of support from parents, carers, schools and a range of professionals just to cope day by day. These are the kids folk don’t invite for play dates or to parties, they’re the kids who folk call on to be kicked out of school when the environment becomes too much for them and they kick off.

Traumatised children become traumatised teens become traumatised adults - they need lifelong support of varying kinds to heal and grow. But once they’re teens and struggling we forget the impact of trauma and try to discipline them using increasingly perjorative language, and once they reach adulthood no one has any consideration of how they’re early experiences might impact them.

In this case Sebastian was described as shy and quiet, these are the kids who get overlooked - unless he made a direct disclosure which he was unlikely to do for many reasons.

It’s also worth bearing in mind many, many children who have abusive, neglectful starts in life so go on to have healthy, productive lives - it’s not a fore gone conclusion by any means but the “cycle of abuse” theory means they become stigmatised by people who think it’s an inevitability.

I'm not saying that's what the PP intended, but I got a similar 😳 to winter, esp
if he hadn't been killed, there's a strong chance he'd have grown up to become an abuser himself. He might have fathered children and buggered off, or worse, abused them or entered into toxic relationships which damaged them emotionally.'.

I'm not accusing anyone of MEANING how it read to me BTW

My post was in response to @toastofthetown . About the fact that the impact of abuse on children is often not that they simply remain tiny, angelic looking, innocent victims, but that there is a greater chance that they will grow into abusers themselves. They'll replicate the experience they've grown up with. Victim becomes perpetrator. Not always, but there's a much stronger chance of someone becoming an abuser if they've suffered abuse themselves. I was discussing why it's such a complex issue and why rather than emoting over the latest incident, it's more important to address the issue at the root.

I don't know how anyone can possibly think that means an incident like this is 'less of a tragedy.' That's a grotesque way to think.

it's easy to emote, and wish 'someone' could have some 'something,' what exactly do you mean?

Precisely. And every thread that mentions SWs, who do an excellent job a lot of the time without anyone noticing, is a litany of abuse. Along with teachers, doctors, police. All doing jobs no one wants to do themselves, but feel qualified to pillory when a poor child like this is killed.

FWIW I report a lot of child protection issues because I work with a lot of troubled families. If more people told what they know, instead of relying on the school, more children would be saved. A broader picture helps SWs a lot. But people want to mind their own unless it's about blaming others for not doing anything.

It's a lot of people standing around asking, "why didn't YOU do anything?" Instead of looking at themselves.

As he’d only just arrived in the country and that was what made him vulnerable, perhaps we should - if we don’t already - have some sort of welcome package? The Belgians and Dutch have inburgering systems. I think they exclude children though, it’s aimed at adults.

We can all make friends with the new Polish, Yemeni or Colombian parent at school. And encourage our children to do the same. Most don't though.

At 15 that's typical. But I noticed at primary that the yummy mummies and in-crowd didn't make friends with the new immigrants. Us outcast parents with SEN children or who were immigrants did though.

Keep an eye on the kid with the dodgy family. Don't avoid them.

He was having additional lessons as an EAL student. The teacher who asked him if he was ok and felt safe was reported to be his EAL teacher. And many schools now have good integration packages/ buddying systems for incoming students.
I really don't see how any agencies including the school could have done anything different here. The school flagged an internal concern after the stepfather was seen to be speaking in a very strict way to the boy. But that doesn't meet the threshold for taking further action.

I'm still confused about what people think anyone involved should have done. A school can't report to social services every teenager who's shy/ on the quiet side/ has English as a second language. And imagine the uproar if they tried!

It's a shocking crime that's been committed but this doesn't seem to be a case of anyone other than the mother and stepfather failing this teenager.

In every single one of this cases it’s due to a new ‘stepparent’ recently on the scene. I don’t know what to suggest other than this needs some thinking about and how to perhaps make people more accountable.

I don’t have children and most definitely not a suitable foster carer. I have reported abuse in the past once. The best thing I can do is vote in a way that I best think leads to more funds for social services and schools. That means me being willing to pay more tax.
if the public did report at scale the pressure on services would increase and we already don’t have enough social workers etc.

That's the harsh reality. It's a cycle. A child growing up in an abusive environment is likely to emulate what they've experienced.
The data disputes this.

@Dajeeling it's very often the case, true

So true, and sadly all the support needed by traumatised children/teens/adults often isn’t available. It would require a massive overhaul and investment in social care/mental health/education systems.

I know people will disagree with the ethics/implementation but I do feel it would be fairer to a lot of children if parents had to go though a process similar to becoming a foster carer or adoptive parent before having a baby. It would reduce so much neglect & abuse if parents who have clear drug, alcohol, violence or mental health problems aren’t able to inflict their damaged lives onto others.

I can't get the poor boy out of my head. Truly devastated

I think this is an unfortunate case where no one could have done anything - he was a teenager, scared and old enough to hide what was going on for fear of what the consequences of telling might be.
I think it is much easier for primary teachers to pick up on this kind of thing than secondary school staff. There will be subtle clues to pick up on and of course the children see the same staff day in and day out so they can get to know them better. If he had come to live with his mother earlier as a young child and abused at a younger age, I think it would have been more obvious for teachers to notice signs of abuse. Things may have turned out differently.
Its very sad but I don’t know what lessons can be learned from this.

Where was his actual father and why did he only come to England in the last year?

@winterchills neither can I. It was the first thing I thought about when I woke up today and yesterday. I can't bear it 💔

So long as voters choose greedy, immoral and repugnant representatives, this will continue.

Vote for social change. Vote for people. Quit idolising the vacuous and the greedy, and start caring about ordinary people.