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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That this transgender person..

613 replies

ClassSize2022 · 20/07/2022 05:11

Should not have been in the ladies changing room? Especially if naked from the waist down.

I can imagine being very frightened in this situation as a biological woman having to share a changing room with a man.

NHS transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802

transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802 Times article

OP posts:
scorpiogirly · 20/07/2022 10:14

More and more of this smut coming to light in the media. I'm thankful for these stories as I think it will shine a light on this insidious movement and peak a lot of people!

No man with a penis should be in women's spaces.

Discovereads · 20/07/2022 10:14

Whatwouldscullydo · 20/07/2022 09:55

A male entering a space with the sole intention of using the women as unconventional props in an identity that is only relevant to them and walking around with their pemis exposed is very much harassing someone.

The TW wasn’t “walking around with their penis exposed”
Not sure how the TW could be using women as a prop when she always changed alone inside a private cubicle.

And you know as well as I do the TWs intent in entering the changing room was to get changed in/out of uniform.

PaddleBoardingMomma · 20/07/2022 10:14

That comment was @SweetPetrichor !

Rainbowbaby13 · 20/07/2022 10:15

CrossStichQueen · 20/07/2022 10:07

The transphobic staff should have been fired. There’s no place for that sort of thing.

Sweet who were the transphobic staff?

@CrossStichQueen presumably the people that didn't want to see a penis 😂 but I could be wrong

To be honest why would they want to be naked from the waist down if they are trying to convince people they are a woman a penis kind of gives the game away

CrossStichQueen · 20/07/2022 10:15

Actually most 15 out of 18 allegations were deemed to have happened (evidenced) but they were not upheld as the tribunal determined they did not happen due to gender reassignment discrimination

So exactly what I said then, not upheld.
Where in my post did I say they didn't happen?

Masterblasterjammin · 20/07/2022 10:16

I’ve read the full report - I cannot see how the trust could have been more supportive. It really sounds like the bent over backwards to accommodate this person. She was on a phased approach to even start the job, which is bonkers.

Some things that stood out to me - the ‘incidents’ (notes/overheard conversations) were only ever reported during conversations where the claimant was asked to increase their hours. There is no evidence that the first note even exists. And it was only mentioned when they were trying to get the claimant to increase the number of shifts to full time (shocking, I know, for a full time job).

Secondly the claimant clearly stated that the voices she overheard having the horrible conversation were ‘posh and english’ - then went on to accuse a colleague with a thick Philippine’s accent, despite there being literally no evidence.

She refused to sign written statements about the notes and conversations she had overheard - why?

She took another woman (who it is documented as being a supportive friend and colleague) to a private room and talked about taking her underwear off because she was hot and sweaty and gestured to ‘wringing it out’ - she was then inconsistent in her denial of this. Even though the claimant denied this happening, the tribunal found ‘’we have no doubt it was meant in a lighthearted way and not sexual in nature’’. How they came to that conclusion is not clear.

She had an incredibly high sickness record, including going off sick for a month after only being in post for a month. However when her pay was due to go to half pay, in line with AfC, was miraculously able to come back to work immediately. But apparently this month long absence being on her sickness record is transphobic? And being asked to attend meetings in line with the managing absence policy is transphobic?

Those are just the points that immediately stood out. Bespoke training was put in place before she started. She accepted a full time role, but refused to do full time hours, and this was accommodated. She was given compassionate leave. There were multiple meetings and investigations into the allegations of bullying, but as she provided literally no evidence whatsoever, no one could be disciplined for this. She had a loud, shouting tantrum in the middle of the canteen, and was not disciplined for this. She was supported to move departments and hospitals, and given buddies to work with.

I genuinely cannot see how someone could read the full report and not think that the trust went above and beyond for this person. I genuinely feel that a ‘cis’ woman (I know that many don’t like that word, but I’m really just using it to highlight the distinction here), would not have been treated with so much grace and understanding.

Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 10:16

she always changed alone inside a private cubicle

Did she aye? 🤔

Apart from the complaint that "she" was naked from the waist down in the changing room.

CoolAir · 20/07/2022 10:16

SweetPetrichor · 20/07/2022 10:04

The transphobic staff should have been fired. There’s no place for that sort of thing.

You fire people who are incompetent at their job or dishonest. You cannot fire people in the nhs for their beliefs.
Where is the evidence this person was either of these?

PaddleBoardingMomma · 20/07/2022 10:16

@Rainbowbaby13 AGP that's why 😔

Whatwouldscullydo · 20/07/2022 10:17

Conflictedunicorn · 20/07/2022 10:13

But surely a make entering a female space would know that they might me causing distress and discomfort to other members of staff. Otherwise all males would be using that facility and it would be labelled as mixed sex? Why did this male feel it was appropriate to enter the female changing rooms? I totally hold the hospital responsible as well as the male involved. They should have used SSE and provided somewhere else for the male to change

Course they know. You can't plead innocence and ignorance because a ideologically captured organisation who's been lobbied into allowing female staff to be sexually harassed gave permission to sexually harass staff.

Of a thief told me it was OK to nick food from tesco im.still responsible for my actions and therfore a theif if I steal food from.tesco.

Conflictedunicorn · 20/07/2022 10:17

Discovereads · 20/07/2022 10:11

I agree on the without seeing a penis, but again there is no evidence anyone saw the TW’s penis.

So all the women were lying? Why would they do that? Surely if it were not true, one witness at least would say it was not true? Unless of course every woman on staff who got changed there was a wicked transphobe. It’s strange no one saw the note, was present at this lengthy conversation or witnessed any other ‘discrimination’.

we had a girl at school who would write anonymous notes to herself for sympathy and to get special treatment. No one ever saw these notes either. As they never existed. Surely the TW would have taken the note to a manager rather than destroying the evidence.

CrossStichQueen · 20/07/2022 10:17

I agree on the without seeing a penis, but again there is no evidence anyone saw the TW’s penis.

Naked from the waist down was the phrase used. How is it possible to be naked from the waist down and not expose your genitals?

Discovereads · 20/07/2022 10:18

WeAreOnTheRoadToNowhere · 20/07/2022 09:44

Why is it so accepted by some posters that women were bullying the TW?🤔
Nobody saw the alleged note, the TW destroyed it, the overhead conversation didn't match with the accused voices/accents and it was clear that the TW was confused/mistaken about some of their accounts of events

One of two notes was destroyed. The second wasn’t and it’s handwriting didn’t match the TWs handwriting.

The overheard conversation was in English accents. The TW when pressured repeatedly by management to guess who said those things guessed a colleague that it turned out did not have an English accent. So the TW then confirmed it could not have been the colleague as her accent wasn’t what she heard. This is actually consistency. The TW has always said the voices had English accents and not deviated from that statement.

FOJN · 20/07/2022 10:18

I get it. Nobody wants to compromise. Let's fight about this issue for ever then.

You haven't addressed my point that by allowing some males into female spaces it is women doing ALL of the compromising. You also haven"t answered my question about why women should be responsible for finding a solution?

It is not women objecting the third spaces. If the argument that TW are at risk in male facilities stood up to scrutiny then you might expect them to enthusiastically embrace third spaces so why do TW reject that option and why are you not asking these questions?

And yes I will fight forever to prevent women being treated like second class citizens. My right to safety, privacy, dignity and protection from males is a hill I'm prepared to die on. I refuse to collude in gaslighting younger or more vulnerable women by telling them that a male who claims a feminine gender identity is less of a risk than any other male, the stats do not support such a bullshit claim and it is dangerous to say otherwise.

Rainbowbaby13 · 20/07/2022 10:19

@PaddleBoardingMomma interesting I'd never heard of that it's hard to keep up

Rainbowbaby13 · 20/07/2022 10:20

FOJN · 20/07/2022 10:18

I get it. Nobody wants to compromise. Let's fight about this issue for ever then.

You haven't addressed my point that by allowing some males into female spaces it is women doing ALL of the compromising. You also haven"t answered my question about why women should be responsible for finding a solution?

It is not women objecting the third spaces. If the argument that TW are at risk in male facilities stood up to scrutiny then you might expect them to enthusiastically embrace third spaces so why do TW reject that option and why are you not asking these questions?

And yes I will fight forever to prevent women being treated like second class citizens. My right to safety, privacy, dignity and protection from males is a hill I'm prepared to die on. I refuse to collude in gaslighting younger or more vulnerable women by telling them that a male who claims a feminine gender identity is less of a risk than any other male, the stats do not support such a bullshit claim and it is dangerous to say otherwise.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

PaddleBoardingMomma · 20/07/2022 10:21

Rainbowbaby13 · 20/07/2022 10:19

@PaddleBoardingMomma interesting I'd never heard of that it's hard to keep up

It's a rabbit hole! But a quick search of AGP and your eyes will be well and truly opened. So so much of the biggest issues women have with these issues can be found to be rooted in AGP.

Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 10:21

It's hilarious that someone is actually arguing that no one saw a penis when a complaint was made that a male was naked from the waist down.

lifeturnsonadime · 20/07/2022 10:22

Whole situation was entirely avoidable if the Trust had complied with the law and provided single sex spaces.

It's a real mess when you can have 2 complaints from each side of a situation, one of discrimination based on gender reassignment and one of discrimination based on sex from women forced to share single sex spaces with males.

And people say there is no conflict of rights, (looking at you the Labour Party). It's just nonsense.

Gender neutral spaces can be provided without compromising single sex ones. That would be equality.

PaddleBoardingMomma · 20/07/2022 10:23

Rainbowshit · 20/07/2022 10:21

It's hilarious that someone is actually arguing that no one saw a penis when a complaint was made that a male was naked from the waist down.

It was their lady penis, you know, like RG pointed out in his latest show. The new cool, exciting, wonderful women have them. Not a uterus and a vagina like us outdated old dinosaurs!

drspouse · 20/07/2022 10:23

PurpleDaisies · 20/07/2022 07:12

This is just cruel and unnecessary behaviour. Condoning this sort of bullying is really horrible. It’s not the same at all as women having concerns about biological males in single sex. Transwomen have the right to dress in any way they want but it’s not right that someone with a penis should be able to use a communal single sex space. Another solution should have been found.

It depends what the reaction was. If it was "that horrible transphobic slur" then yes, that's cruel and unnecessary.
If it was a shocked "why is Sir wearing blouse and a makeup and has he got a slang for erection in class? I'm going to talk to my mum and the head teacher" then no, that's not cruel and unnecessary.
And if it was "Sir, can Jason and me wear a skirt to class?" then that seems fairly logical.

Conflictedunicorn · 20/07/2022 10:23

Is this like theWiSpa incidence where everyone took the side of the ‘poor oppressed TW’ until it was found he had been exposing his genitals to children in the changing rooms? He had permission to go there as per policy, does that make it ok? I’m sure at least one TRA was saying ‘the children should not have been looking’ rather than blaming the TW, and this seems a similar thing. The safety, comfort and dignity of women means nothing in the face of male entitlement.

CrossStichQueen · 20/07/2022 10:23

The overheard conversation was in English accents. The TW when pressured repeatedly by management to guess who said those things guessed a colleague that it turned out did not have an English accent. So the TW then confirmed it could not have been the colleague as her accent wasn’t what she heard. This is actually consistency. The TW has always said the voices had English accents and not deviated from that statement.

Actually the TW knew the colleague did not have an English accent as it states in the judgement that the colleague spoke to the TW ( about dropped hairnets) before the TW claimed she was one of the women talking. There was no pressure from management to name people the claimants complaint was investigated as it should be. It was the TW who stated they were 85% sure it was the Filipino staff member.

The judgement shows the inconsistencies and lack of evidence shown by the TW throughout.

Discovereads · 20/07/2022 10:23

CrossStichQueen · 20/07/2022 10:17

I agree on the without seeing a penis, but again there is no evidence anyone saw the TW’s penis.

Naked from the waist down was the phrase used. How is it possible to be naked from the waist down and not expose your genitals?

You can be “naked from the waist down in the changing room”- a room that includes toilets, shower and private cubicles without exposing yourself because you’re in one of those private walled/screened off areas of the changing room.

If it even happened. The Tribunal made no comment as to whether this happened. The existence of this report was alleged by a NHS manager in defence of her questions about underwear to the TW. No copy of this “report” written or otherwise was presented.

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 20/07/2022 10:24

VetIsMe · 20/07/2022 07:35

It's disgusting to use the word transphobic.

To call it phobic wrongly describe systems of oppression as irrational fears. 😡

Also, I hope you know that for some of us, phobias are a very real and distressing part of our lived experience and using this language is incredibly triggering.

If you have any empathy and don't want to perpetuate ableism please refrain from calling people transphobic!!!

Good points, VetisMe. But I doubt if didimum is worried about perpetuating ableism.