That this transgender person..

[ClassSize2022]

Should not have been in the ladies changing room? Especially if naked from the waist down.

I can imagine being very frightened in this situation as a biological woman having to share a changing room with a man.

NHS transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802

transgender worker wins payout after boss asked about underwear www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3e15f7c2-0779-11ed-a986-fc91b4ad48f0?shareToken=b22ada0c3a8e04d703e4eb229fb47802 Times article

Thanks for the summary – this is very explanatory of how I feel about the details of the case and therefore the subsequent conversations about it.

Again, so as not to be accused of 'running away', I don't have time to respond to all the posts to me just now. But I will try to pop back later.

That was in reference to how we decide if someone is 'a flasher' or not – not the use of changing rooms.

OK. As PPs have said, I don't think that judgement is restricted to courts either but, again, best to report posts that really annoy you rather than making it the focus of the discussion.

What all the do gooders up in arms about the women being so mean to this person don't seem to comprehend, is that situations like this will mean that more trans people are unlikely to be offered jobs because from the moment the job was offered the demands and concessions were made.

At no time did the trust actually ever think of their duty of care towards the female people they employed. If the tribunal had actually considered the women subjected to the behaviour of course they wouldn't accept this from a man, but say the magic word 'trans' and everyone loses their rational minds.

In reality if this person had been treated like any other non trans person, he would have been let go months before he left. If he ever made it to the start date.

If a non trans male had insisted on using the female changing rooms, they would have said no. That was the time to put their line in the sand, and they didn't and they are paying for it.

The HR woman will now have to modify her presentation to remove the part about there being no evidence of transwomen causing any issues in the ladies.

Wonder if being exposed to the reality of it will have changed her enthusiasm for such inclusion?

@donquixotedelamancha

On the specific topic: do you think it was OK for this pre-op, non-passing, transwoman to be showering with women @Didimum?

It is not something I would have objected to on a personal level. I respect other women's right to object to it however.

It was simply a comment on how society decides whether a criminal act has been committed.

I do not accept that it's transphobic to say that any male who intentionally exposes their penis to an unwilling woman is a flasher.

Just to be clear, you believe males who expose themselves to females are just fine? At what age of female do you think it is not fine? Or is ok at any age?

I don't believe anyone is claiming that here. Though generally used definition of a 'flasher' is to expose in a 'public setting' and not a private one. So perhaps a more appropriate term could be used when an incident such as that does occur.

To answer that I think 'expose themselves' is a phrase that needs contextualisation and clarification of the intent behind the 'exposure'. In my opinion it is not clear in the case discussed in this thread – you don't have to share that opinion, of course.

This was at work.

In a hospital.

It is weird how the dismantling of what we used to think of as 'safeguarding' has been torn down completely by people who just want to be nice.

God help our girls.

Contextualisation?

If you see someone's penis without your express permission then they have exposed themselves to you.

A communal changing room is very much a public place!!!

It's fine if you don't see it as needing contextualisation – you're entitled to your opinion. If I do think something needs contextualisation then that's my own.

And the transwoman knew fine well that the women didn't want to see their penis. Exposing your penis to someone against their will is very much indecent exposure.

And to talk about intent, he intended this before he even started the job otherwise he'd not have secured the managment's approval to use the ladies changing rooms.

Ooh I'm having major deja vu ti earlier in the thread. 🤔

Naked from the waist down doesn't mean anyone saw a penis

Showing Simeon your penis against their will isn't exposing oneself

And communal changing rooms do not count as a public area

I suppose from thiosewho redefine women to include males then they can redefine any commonly understood words or concept to suit their narrative. 🤔

If I were asked to comment on a hypothetical case where a transgender person won a tribunal because of proven discrimination due to them being transgender - for example, receiving notes of the type discussed in the case above, verbal bullying and so on - I would say 'Great! Nobody should be treated that way.' I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of posters on this thread would agree - after all, when you're a feminist opposing sexism you can quite easily sympathise with other forms of discrimination.

I highly object to being called transphobic for discussing the ramifications for women of the case this thread is actually about.

I think of a 'public place' as being a space which members of the public have unrestricted access to and right of way. I wouldn't apply that to a workplace changing room. Perhaps you would define it differently, however.

Actually the claimant only had permission to use a cubicle within the changing room. They were never given permission to change in the communal area, whether or not they removed their underwear.

What age is the minimum age when men can expose their penises to girls without the girl's express permission?

To put that into context, by age I mean the number of years on the planet starting at the moment of birth and counting a year as 364.25 days and by girl I mean female child that is under 18 years [on the planet starting at birth etc].

By penis i mean the part of the male body that a man uses to ejaculate and pee out of. That is used in an erect state to rape people when they have not expressed permission for sex.

The apologism for the sexual assault of these poor women on this thread is utterly disgusting.

I think of a 'public place' as being a space which members of the public have unrestricted access to and right of way. I wouldn't apply that to a workplace changing room. Perhaps you would define it differently, however.

My colleagues are 'members of the public'. If an individual with a penis came into my office which requires swipe card access and dropped pants and exposed said penis it would be flashing.

Ditto if the individual did the same in the women's changeroom we have on site.

'Private' is my home. Having said that, if a plumber with a penis dropped pants in my bathroom and exposed said penis it would also be flashing.

But women shouldn't have to give any justification at all for why they don't want to share changing spaces with someone with a penis.

"I don't want to" should be good enough.

Yes we're not going to get very far when the definition of every word is open to interpretation.

But then that seems to be the idea.