Just privatise the NHS

[user1237865]

Totally prepared to be told IABU but I've just got to the point where I think the NHS is so far gone it should be privatised.

Totally outing so I've Name changed. In NI we have 2 private hospitals but they don't do emergency's, they don't do ante natal care. Really they only provide you with an appointment with a consultant who will then decide in treatment which in most cases will happen on the NHS. If it's something like cataracts they'll do it but the private hospitals here don't do anything major. Perhaps the rest of the UK is the same. I'm not sure.

Today DSis was sent to A&E by the GP. DM and her have now been waiting 7 hours to be seen. While waiting another man collapsed and died in front of them. I think this is beyond ridiculous how can they let this happen?! If people were seen in a decent time frame this would be less likely.

FIL has terminal cancer again nowhere to treat him when he gets recurring sepsis so most times he sits on a chair (around ever 2 months) for 36 hours getting an IV in A&E before he's finally gets moved to a ward.

I paid for private ante natal care each time I was pregnant. It did give me appointments every 3 weeks and scans with a consultant but when it came to giving birth it was a time when the consultant was working a shift for the NHS thus using their resources and beds. Yes the care was probably therefore cheaper than had I been paying for my stay in hospital too but it isn't an option here.

The whole things a complete joke. Those willing to pay/ have insurance are still stuck blocking the NHS which in my opinion should be there for those that can't afford their own treatment or can't get insurance through their job.

Surely if a lot of it was private, pay would be better, meaning more people choosing it as a career (and not leaving) meaning people actually get proper care! Though so much of what I think could be wrong as I don't understand it all fully.

And also people refusing social care because they have to pay, therefore in and out of A&E like a revolving door.
Saw this very regularly as a district nurse. The stubborn and unrealistic "I can manage" brigade. Also more recently as an in patient myself recently where two of the three practically immobile very frail elderly ladies in my bay were insisting on going home where neighbours and family would help.

as does adult social care
But there are no grown ups actually able to grasp that and just do it. Fund it properly, stop cocking about and tweaking it and let it settle down!

Too late, so many have left the sector, my DD's former care agency has returned almost all council care contracts, just does privately funded ones now, no staff.

you can chuck as much money at it as you like but the fact remains is much of this work was done by brilliant EU workers who have now gone.

There simply isn't enough skilled people in the UK to do the jobs we need to be done.

The most ridiculous post award ever on mumsnet goes to you. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

perhaps if this country wasn’t so xenophobic and encouraged migration, we would have a fluid younger population who would be welcome to work here and pay taxes instead of demonised. This would help massively too.

we certainly need it.

And why does being over 60 automatically mean free prescriptions?

That will be scrapped soon. Young people will have higher taxes, higher pension age despite not living longer, higher house prices & quite frankly we are going to need much more migration as more born here will likely go elsewhere.

I do see where you're coming from. Working in a GP surgery I see the s**t that people go to A&E with or phone ambulances about etc hence making it a nightmare for people who actually need these services. It would be a different story if they had to pay. But ultimately no I think we need to protect the NHS and hopefully get it back on its feet.

45% of overall government spending on goods and services

The government doesn’t just award contracts for goods and services…contracting spending is a fraction of total spending.

Totally miss the part where I said 'may get treated quicker' then?

It’s not surprising Swiss healthcare is best in Europe they spend a lot more:
Its healthcare expenditure as a percentage of GDP (currently 12.3%) is also the highest in Europe. (this is 2016, preCovid)

U.K. expenditure on healthcare in 2016 was 9.9%

Why? Because this country will insist on voting for the Conservative Party.

Though so much of what I think could be wrong as I don't understand it all fully.

You don't understand that people who cannot afford to pay for private health care have to sell their house, or die, in the States?
Why not go & live there if you like their appalling system so much?

Same as my experience regarding equipment, make do and mend causing massive infection control issues (in theatres!)

No domestic staff in theatres to clean down properly, unlike in the NHS (as it saves money) so theatre staff rushing around at the end of a list in the one minute they have left to clean a theatre.

Cost saving methods that mean equipment is damaged when returned, sometimes not finding out until the patient is in the anaesthetic room.

Minimal staff, so one nurse for 6 joint replacements in a day, instead of another nurse to swap and circulate, bad practice.

On and on...

My DC have private health insurance (long story), I do not.
It was used recently for the first time and what an eye opener.

The consultants/ surgeons on the list all work for the NHS too. In fact many are based in NHS hospitals dotted around the city closest to us.
They were all available one or two days a week for private appointments at the private hospital.

When I called for an appointment I was told ’We can’t offer you anything until Wednesday’ (it was Monday).
After the initial consultation the procedure was booked in for the following Saturday.

This is for an issue with a waiting list of up to 2 years on the NHS.

The first thing I thought was - why are they allowed to work for both? Surely this just slows the NHS waiting list down further.
I guess if they are forced to work for one or the other, most would go 100% private and the NHS would be left with nobody?

I just want to add that in an emergency our local NHS hospital is amazing.
I had to have emergency surgery under general anaesthetic. I came into contact with so many brilliant people in a really short time.

Waiting times for non emergency procedures are a different story.
The Human Resources are just not there.

@EntertainingandFactual my DH is a consultant contracted to work 12 NHS sessions a week (FT is deemed 10 sessions).

What he does outside of those sessions is up to him. But mostly he’s providing private care to people whose cancer care has been a shitshow, thanks to the NHS.

There are not enough patients with the means to pay to allow him to work privately FT. But he wouldn’t want to, because most of the learning, training, research etc takes place in teaching hospitals (NHS).

TBF @useuser1237865 the NI health service is in a much worse state than the rest of the U.K. (which isn't great I agree) because of the shambles that's the NI assembly. There as been no functioning government for so long. NHS, schools, local government, etc haven't been funded properly for many years.

I'm from NI all my family still live there and they are all disgusted at the state of the place.

I also work for the NHS in England and whilst we do have problems they aren't a patch on yours. My trust is in target for A&E, 2 week wait and other national targets. Most of our current issues are because we have masses of staff off with Covid

@user1237865 I never understand people in NI paying for private ante-natal care. You will always end up in an NHS hospital for birth!

Not voting in NI is a disgrace. I don't care if they're "clowns", health is still devolved so decisions are taken here.

Our system is broken. Years of underinvestment, lack of decision making and too much parochialism.

@Deguster

I noticed that the private appointments on offer were weekday (one morning or afternoon a week) and Saturdays.
The procedure took place on a Saturday.

I am not criticising the consultants and surgeons. I am saying that the private hospitals do not have their own staff!
They all come from the NHS.
Without the NHS (as you say, training and researching) , there would be no private healthcare!

And vast cuts are now being made in various areas, including ones which didn't grow during covid. The NHS didn't grow anywhere near as much as the civil service did either.

So basically you would like poor people to die and middle income people to be bankrupted?
But hey, you can afford it so whoopdedoo.

I am an ordinarily paid employee in Germany.
My contribution to the social coffers (Sozialabgaben) are:
14,6% of my gross income for health insurance
18,6% for pension
3,05 % for old age care (Pflegeversicherung)
2,4% unemployment
My employer pays to the amount of about 21% of my gross income into the coffers as well.
Those that earn above a certain amount can opt out of health insurance and pay privately.

I'd agree it needs some form of reform - less privatisation bit by bit and often like NHS dentistry ad hoc and varying how how area to area. Family members who have regular contact can see the waste and inefficiencies let alone all the hidden management positions that have suddenly been needed.

I worry that so many people are unwilling to even talk about it - there are many European systems that seem to be rated higher than UK and it's often a mix of private public and safety nets for poorest.

USA partly ended up with it's shit system because views were apparently after second world war that some thing would just develop and it started out a job perk to be offered health insurance that and their predatory capitalism.

I do think we need to have the conversations before we end up with a US system by default because no-one willing to plan an alterative.

N.I health care is the worst situation - but wales run by Labour 20+ years is still worse then England's NHS in most surveys.

Yes I'd agree we probably do need to pay much more but if that's swallowed up by with more management levels it won't help.

You are totally correct, OP, and many NHS staff will agree with you. The last thing needed is more funding - it's like pouring water into a bucket with a hole in it. The institutional waste and inefficiency is endemic, and nobody takes responsibility.

People quote the USA as a reason why we shouldn't have private medicine, but let's look at the countries where it does work (Switzerland, France, Holland, Australia etc). I would vote for any political party that promised to set up a Royal Commission to find a better system - sadly, politicians appear to be unimaginative and too scared of the electorate which, largely, buys into the nonsense of "we must protect the NHS".

The person who said that GPs are slowly being privatised should know that GPs have been private contractors since the NHS was founded in 1948. They submit their accounts to HMRC every year and pay tax on their profits.

This is very true. Although practices are now being bought up by large US health firms who are running them very different to the individual cooperatives or small groups that owned them before. My former surgery changed overnight to a system in which you could not book an appointment before you’d had a triage phone call with a nurse, which happened at a time of their choosing, so tough luck if you couldn’t answer. It took days.

I would also look to systems like France - pay a small amount for a GP appt, always the same day for around €25. Those that can't afford this/on benefits still get free health care.