Just privatise the NHS

[user1237865]

Totally prepared to be told IABU but I've just got to the point where I think the NHS is so far gone it should be privatised.

Totally outing so I've Name changed. In NI we have 2 private hospitals but they don't do emergency's, they don't do ante natal care. Really they only provide you with an appointment with a consultant who will then decide in treatment which in most cases will happen on the NHS. If it's something like cataracts they'll do it but the private hospitals here don't do anything major. Perhaps the rest of the UK is the same. I'm not sure.

Today DSis was sent to A&E by the GP. DM and her have now been waiting 7 hours to be seen. While waiting another man collapsed and died in front of them. I think this is beyond ridiculous how can they let this happen?! If people were seen in a decent time frame this would be less likely.

FIL has terminal cancer again nowhere to treat him when he gets recurring sepsis so most times he sits on a chair (around ever 2 months) for 36 hours getting an IV in A&E before he's finally gets moved to a ward.

I paid for private ante natal care each time I was pregnant. It did give me appointments every 3 weeks and scans with a consultant but when it came to giving birth it was a time when the consultant was working a shift for the NHS thus using their resources and beds. Yes the care was probably therefore cheaper than had I been paying for my stay in hospital too but it isn't an option here.

The whole things a complete joke. Those willing to pay/ have insurance are still stuck blocking the NHS which in my opinion should be there for those that can't afford their own treatment or can't get insurance through their job.

Surely if a lot of it was private, pay would be better, meaning more people choosing it as a career (and not leaving) meaning people actually get proper care! Though so much of what I think could be wrong as I don't understand it all fully.

I just spent 13h in A&E in incredible pain (abscess on my privates ). I was made to sit on a hard plastic chair for the duration (sitting on my infection! ), no pain-relief offered, no triage (I could have been in the throes of sepsis for all they know).

I finally collapsed from the shock of pain (I attempted a walk to the loo). At that point I dialled 999 for an ambulance (from the waiting room of A&E!! ).

I was preparing to call the police too, as the rules in custody compel the officers to provide a doctor within an hour to sick inmates.

Anyway, after me getting on the phone the most immediate needs got catered for straight away : the morphine appeared (I asked for Ibuprofen before but didn't even get any) , offers of a hot drink and even a side-room with a mini sofa for me to able NOT to sit on my injury. All the things the department had the ability to provide but chose not to for 13 hours!!

The people at the nurse's station barely deserve to be called people. They're some humanoid-creatures devoid of empathy and care. It's not funding that denied me a reading of oxygen/blood pressure/temperature and a few pills of Ibuprofen. It's the human factor in the NHS. In the time it took them to stand there cracking jokes, doing Corona-tests on all and sundry, clicking their necks and knuckles, they could have given me some pain-relief as I asked for (already in tears) .

I hate the "nurses" of A&E (they were much more civil on the ward. Like it has always been the case). And yes, the NHS should follow the European model of mixed funding. It would weed the monsters out of the system and the whole health - care would run more efficiently/ humanely on less staff.

And fuck the nurses protesting for a pay increase!! Where do I protest against the torture in their care!?
I will be submitting a complaint about my miss-treatment in A&E. Anyone else knows already how that will go? 🙄😡

@QueenCamilla so sorry you had such an awful experience. I have had some shocking care at time as well - particularly post natal "care" and it annoys me the way nurses are deified. They are not bloody angels they're people. Some are absolutely lovely, some are just average Joe's and some are terrible human beings.

@Pussycat22 I earn around £120k - not quite enough to trouble the 60% marginal rate, but my annual contribution last year:

PAYE - £38,232
NI - £7,196

And while I do go private for some things, our main healthcare needs are for disabled DS and there is no private pediatric service within 200 miles. Should we move to London just to access (private) care for him? What if everyone with the means did that?

It is utterly terrifying that the NHS is the only game in town when your DC needs help and is turned away, dismissed and ignored.

@Deguster it’s a similar situation with specialist mental health provision. The nearest private care when I looked into it was more than 2 hours drive away. Even if we could afford to pay and it was as safe as NHS provision, it would be completely impractical.

'But do you really believe that our Government would create a hybrid approach that still had the majority funded through the state rather than jumping down full privatisation? Even if we started with a German-style system, it'd soon escalate and we'd be a full scale USA system in no time at all'

Or we keep putting our heads in the sand and complain that nothing changes....

Or we elect a party that actually believes in and properly funds the NHS and we return to the record satisfaction levels we had in 2010 rather than the terribly low ones we have now. It's worth noting that the satisfaction levels were equally as low as now at the end of the last Tory government.

Just like the electricity companies, gas suppliers, water suppliers, train operators (the latter working with government subsidies with some lines now taken back into government ownership) to name but a few. Because that is really working out well isn't it 😂

Nurses never chose to be given the label of an 'angel' and I bet that many find it embarrassing. In a way that has actually been a stereotype that has been a bit undermining; however well-meaning because it almost reinforces a perception that they don't need a pay increase or financial compensation for what they do because they are just doing it out of altruism. They are just people - many bloody hard working but they are people. Let's avoid generalising about them.

That's the problem isn't it. That is the suspicion and I can't help but feel they suspicion isn't misplaced under this government. There are many in the Tory party that have an ideological zeal towards the idea of a minimal government.

'Or we elect a party that actually believes in and properly funds the NHS and we return to the record satisfaction levels we had in 2010 rather than the terribly low ones we have now.'

I don't believe it is possible to go back to those levels without a significant restructure, cuts or both. We won't go back in time. The demand levels ten years ago were nowhere near those we have now. We need reality not belief or faith.

You've said we need reality not belief yet have started your posts by stating that you don't believe it's possible to get back what we had before. Our beliefs, that the NHS can be sorted or that it can't, are both equally valid. The reality is that we cannot more beyond a belief and know it unless we try to sort it. Unfortunately, a right wing government will never ever put the investment into the NHS in order to try. It fundamentally defies their core belief in small government.

The demand levels may be more them they were, but we can also invest more and target it properly so that supply is more, staffing is more, efficiency is more, etc. But we've had 12 years of leadership from people who do not actually support the concept of an NHS: we can't make major decisions based on their record.

No, Switzerland has universal healthcare, not privatised healthcare. The mandatory health insurance isn’t private, it’s public,

(The NHS isn’t free either, it’s funded through our taxes)

The Swiss healthcare system is renowned for being one of the best in Europe, although it may seem complicated at first with a range of public, subsidized private and fully private health insurance options to consider.

Everyone living in Switzerland must have basic public health and accident insurance (Soziale Krankenversicherung / Assurance maladie / Assicurazione-Mallatie) to receive treatment.

Unlike other European countries, the Swiss healthcare system is not tax-based or financed by employers. Instead, it is paid for by the individual through contributions to Swiss health insurance schemes. Many people top up the basic cover with supplementary private health insurance.

State health insurance covers 80–90% of medical costs (excluding the first CHF 300 of annual treatment costs and daily fees for hospital stays). The coverage is identical across all providers, and includes:

Accidents: If you work eight hours or more per week, you’re covered by your employer against accidents. If your employer doesn’t provide coverage, you must get additional accident coverage.
Alternative therapy: Covers some treatments (including acupuncture, pharmacotherapy, and homeopathy) if done by an accredited specialist.
Cancer screenings: Covers mammograms and colon cancer screenings for those aged over 50.
Dental care: Covers only emergency treatment relating to serious mouth or jaw disorders or diseases.
Doctors and medical specialists: General check-ups and treatments are covered, including physiotherapy. Exclusions include some specialist treatments, and premiums are higher for those with high-risk profiles.
Eye care: Covers children aged up to 18 for prescriptions of glasses and contact lenses up to CHF 180 a year. Also covers adults with serious visual conditions.
Hospital visits: Covers inpatient, outpatient, and emergency treatment.
Maternity care: Antenatal classes, childbirth expenses, and abortions are covered.
Medical devices: Claims are possible for items such as bandages, inhalers, or incontinence devices.
Medical transport: Covers half of the costs.
Medication: Covers either 80% or 90% of prescriptions.
Mental healthcare: Covers some services, including psychotherapy. Alternative or rehabilitative programs might not be.
Rehabilitation: Covers care provided after an operation or serious illness.
Sexual health: Covers gynaecological screenings.
Treatment abroad: Coverage in EU/EFTA countries through the European Health Insurance Card. Covers some costs in non-EU countries during short trips, although you may need additional travel insurance. Check which conditions apply.
Vaccinations: Covers the Swiss Vaccination Plan guidelines.

www.expatica.com/ch/healthcare/healthcare-basics/a-guide-to-swiss-health-insurance-693473/#Public

No it doesn’t it’s not even close to 40% of government spending.

At 218.6bn, it’s 21% of government spending on services (see table)
www.gov.uk/government/statistics/public-spending-statistics-release-may-2022/public-spending-statistics-may-2022

A Tory government would only be interested in replacing the NHS with a US style private profit model healthcare. No thanks!

Exactly

I think it's a shame to curb discussion of the alternatives with the assumption that the only option considered would be the US system.

I'm not convinced it's the case and assuming that creates an impasse for trying to improve the NHS which clearly isn't working for staff or patients.

I will be submitting a complaint about my miss-treatment in A&E. Anyone else knows already how that will go? 🙄😡

I sent a complaint to Pals, after 8 hours in A & E with DD, and the LD nurse told me to. I got no response after a month, so I made a formal complaint instead. They have promised me a response by mid September.

We took DD to A & E, who had fallen down the stairs, rather than wait for an ambulance. She had query multiple fractures, including the neck - there was no triage, and we were told to sit in a corridor with 20 other people and 2 chairs. Luckily, we have a wheelchair and we took that for her, because she was in so much pain, otherwise she would have had to sit on the floor for 4 hours. She is functioning at the level of a 2 year old, with challenging behaviour? I complained to the Learning Disability nurse, who came down and got a trolley for DD.

At the end of another 4 hours of numerous x rays, and CT scans of the head and neck, the doctor said to me

”I have put some notes on the system. You don’t want a repetition of today, where she is left for so long, until she is in so much pain, nobody can do anything with her!”

As it was, they missed 2 fractures, and called us back 2 days later. Then the pain relief they gave, was so inadequate, we couldn’t get her to eat or drink or take her meds; every time she stood up, she fell down unconscious with a seizure (not ideal with 2 fractures already) and she told us a million times to fuck off! We couldn’t do anything with her!

No thanks . Leave our NHS alone

Well, to be quite honest, you'd never get a USA style system--because the USA doesn't really have a system. It has a kludge of different systems, with dozens of different problems. People extrapolate potential consequences for the UK based on entirely different and sometimes contradictory problems in US healthcare. It isn't necessarily bad, for example, to have the payer and the provider be separated, or for providers to be privately operated. The issue is how they are regulated and managed. When we say we don't trust the government, the core issue is that we don't trust them to manage and regulate private providers to keep the system level.

Similarly, the NHS has problems that come from different sources, both structural and financial. The UK also has one of the highest percentages of health spending coming from public expenditure. Last I checked it was 90%. Private healthcare in the UK, as currently constructed, acts as a relief valve, and since it uses the same providers at lower volumes, its expansion can take away from the public system.

Healthcare is composed of interlocking pieces, and you can't necessarily borrow ideas piecemeal. For example, in Israel, if you don't have one of a list of specified conditions or circumstances, you need to call your health fund and get a referral to A&E. If you go to the hospital anyway, you'll be billed for it. But in order for this to be effective, you need to have accessible GP services and out of hours/urgent care services. Because of the squeeze on GP services, more people wind up in A&E in the UK, which is the most expensive way to treat patients.

Thank you @knitnerd90 for your post. A&E is a very expensive way to deal with simple but possibly frightening conditions. I like the French system of a nurse run office walk in clinic. If they say you need a doctor's input, then that'ss what you do, Otherwise, your injury is bandaged or you get a low level Rx treatment.

@BronzeSage we can't. If you want anything like a universal healthcare system, then the debate about how much it can and might cost, has got to be had.

It isn't necessarily bad, for example, to have the payer and the provider be separated, or for providers to be privately operated

This is the key to the whole debate ime. Out of interest, if we had a National food service, would PP’s expect their supermarkets to be more like Netto or Waitrose? And are we happy to only have Netto when all of our European neighbours have universal healthcare and a choice of where to go?

I like the French system of a nurse run office walk in clinic. If they say you need a doctor's input, then that'ss what you do, Otherwise, your injury is bandaged or you get a low level Rx treatment.

Isn’t that basically an urgent treatment hub? We used to have a Minor Injuries clinic, which was nurse led. It’s re-opening in October as an urgent treatment hub, which is nurse led on an appointment basis, by referrals from 111 or a GP. There is also elsewhere an urgent treatment centre, which is a walk in clinic, led by doctors.

The only problem with nurses, so a relative who is a doctor says, is that they can’t think outside the box - a patient presents with a set of symptoms, which a nurse would say is X (something common, but not serious), when actually its a rare heart condition, which is serious!