Just privatise the NHS

[user1237865]

Totally prepared to be told IABU but I've just got to the point where I think the NHS is so far gone it should be privatised.

Totally outing so I've Name changed. In NI we have 2 private hospitals but they don't do emergency's, they don't do ante natal care. Really they only provide you with an appointment with a consultant who will then decide in treatment which in most cases will happen on the NHS. If it's something like cataracts they'll do it but the private hospitals here don't do anything major. Perhaps the rest of the UK is the same. I'm not sure.

Today DSis was sent to A&E by the GP. DM and her have now been waiting 7 hours to be seen. While waiting another man collapsed and died in front of them. I think this is beyond ridiculous how can they let this happen?! If people were seen in a decent time frame this would be less likely.

FIL has terminal cancer again nowhere to treat him when he gets recurring sepsis so most times he sits on a chair (around ever 2 months) for 36 hours getting an IV in A&E before he's finally gets moved to a ward.

I paid for private ante natal care each time I was pregnant. It did give me appointments every 3 weeks and scans with a consultant but when it came to giving birth it was a time when the consultant was working a shift for the NHS thus using their resources and beds. Yes the care was probably therefore cheaper than had I been paying for my stay in hospital too but it isn't an option here.

The whole things a complete joke. Those willing to pay/ have insurance are still stuck blocking the NHS which in my opinion should be there for those that can't afford their own treatment or can't get insurance through their job.

Surely if a lot of it was private, pay would be better, meaning more people choosing it as a career (and not leaving) meaning people actually get proper care! Though so much of what I think could be wrong as I don't understand it all fully.

I don't think labour will do what's needed to fix it either though to be honest. It's not as easy as throwing more money at it, there need to be fundamental changes which no government will have the appetite for. Things were better under labour but weren't sustainable, no doubt they'd be better than the tories but they're not a magic pill.

@user1237865 I have no interest in green and orange politics which seems to be all politics is about in NI

That's only because DUP/SinnFein are always voted in. There are plenty other parties who care about Health, Education, Environment etc, we just need more of us voting for them. Look how well Alliance did this year. I'm hopeful things can change here but it will take people like you using your vote

@Tiani4 Voters in NI don't have any influence over whether Labour or Tories win

I have had to see the doctor 4 times this year and my children have had various hospital and doctors appointments.

I have chronic health conditions which are well managed but required regular visits.

As it goes I could afford to pay for the cost of my treatment within the type of parameters you suggest, but many cannot.

And the requirement to see the doctor is rarely convenient and may well fall in a month where money is tight.

www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/fact-or-fiction-the-welsh-nhs-performs-poorly-compared-to-the-english-nhs#3-different-spending-decisions-have-been-taken

I think this is fair assessment of Welsh NHS which is under Labour control and has been for nearly 20 years - it's not obviously better than England.

I suppose it's possible a UK Labour government might increase spending but either that's cuts else where - and I think all the easy cuts and efficiencies have been made already - or higher taxes or more borrowing. I do think we do need to be spending more on health - much more as population continues to age but it's like the Tory tax cuts being touted where the money going to come from - there aren't easy answers and I can't say I have confidence that any politicians are willing to have those conversations - all the parties kick it down the road and at some point the road is going to run out.

In the end my sister left a&e after waiting 10.5 hours and still not being seen. Starving, thirsty and in more pain than when she went in.

A man died in front of them waiting (they were all sent out)
Countless mh cases, and countless little babies all waiting.

IMO it was wrong of the GP to send her to A&E but my sister went as the GP said she had to and thought it was urgent. Obviously a&e didn't see it that way or she would have been seen quicker.

She phoned the private hospital yesterday morning, was given an appointment. Was in and out within 20 minutes of arriving with a prescription. Total cost was £72 (£60 insurance excess and £12 for prescription).

Unfortunately we as a family have been let down countless times by the NHS I'm actually struggling to remember the last time any of us received good care from them.

What frustrates me is things like DS waiting for a small operation was initially told it would be done between 12&18 months so the scar has healed on his face before starting school. I've recently found out the waiting list is in excess of 4 years (so won't be done ahead of school) and there's nowhere to get it done private here.

I've had the best world class care from NHS in England and Wales and such substandard care it was life threatening - and there's no clue which you'll get.

NHS in N.I is crumbling faster than other parts of the UK due to politics - which is probably why the OP is so frustrated but it's also frustrating how much of a sacred cow the NHS is that so many are unwilling to even discuss how to move forward.

People can't afford to eat & you want their most basic rights removed? Ok.

@luckylavender I can only assume you missed this part of my original post

The whole things a complete joke. Those willing to pay/ have insurance are still stuck blocking the NHS which in my opinion should be there for those that can't afford their own treatment or can't get insurance through their job.

Underfund the NHS . Privatise by stealth. Give money making contracts to your cronies and mates with zero public scrutiny. Leave the more challenging areas within the publicly funded NHS. Then Use complaints re poor service to argue for complete privatisation . That’s the Tory way.

GPs need to step up and stop sending people to A and E. We also need a more common sense approach.
An issue I had a few years ago really made me think. So I have asthma, and use inhalers. I felt a little bit triggered which was likely caused by pollen. Inhaler ran out, couldn't pick up from GP as it was Saturday so had to wait to Monday.
I went to a pharmacy and explained the situation, showed them my inhaler and asked if I could purchase one. They told me no and I had to go to A and E if I got bad. I asked them if this was really responsible with how much pressure the NHS is under and why I couldn't purchase one now while I'm capable of doing so instead of having to wait until I was a medical emergency to get treatment. As we all know, asthma can kill.
The person at the counter then went to speak to their supervisor and in the end they did agree to give me the inhaler, which I paid for.

I think there should be better investment in private care, more of it available not just consultant appointments and then everything put through the NHS.
The NHS should be for those that can't afford insurance or to pay for their care.
Everyone paying for private care should also still pay for the NHS as they could find they need it if they can no longer afford private care.

In NI we don't have enough hospitals to cope with the amount of people and thus don't have staff either (but I also personally know a lot of friends have left)

If the NHS wasn't so overrun, if demand didn't outstrip supply so badly it would be a fantastic place to go and I imagine a better place to work.

The NHS has been underfunded for years so when it does get privatised people won't care.

Why are they blocking the NHS ? If you have ins or pay, you don't need much from the NHS, GP referral, thats about it.

Private health, however, don't do many types of chronic treatments nor AE but they do GP appointments or at the very least a video consultation.

However, what private does do, is allow those in power to make very bad decisions on the NHS or Social Care, as they don't use it.

Can you afford to pay private? It will be more expensive and not a little bit, and not as I have had people tell me "me and the wife only pay £67 a month for private" as that is because there is an NHS to back it up.. think £1000-1500 a month for a family of 4) still sounding like a good deal?
If your employer provides it what if they sack you? A nurse friend ended up in ITU in the hospital she worked in and was sacked, on medical capability after 4 weeks (I expect it would take longer here but even so...) anyway most employers who pay minimum wage are not going to provide this as a benefit.

On the running how will being private help? As the lack of doctors and nurses will be the same, and you will need to employee 1000's of admin staff to get insurance details, calculate and send invoices and chase payments.

But it will happen the tories have been working on this goal for 12 years so stupid people will blame the NHS not the people who control the money and how it is used.

I look forward to you dealing with your child with a Squint where you spend 3 years fighting the insurance company because they say it is cosmetic even though the child has double vision. Or having a pre existing condition so they decided they won't cover you or having to giving up custody of children to an ex because they have insurance and you don't.
If you are going to claim you meant like they has in Australia or Germany you can think again because the government are talking exclusively to American healthcare and insurance companies because that is how they are their friends will get richer.

You would be better off fighting for the NHS to have proper funding.

These all happened to my neighbour.

It's actually the people who don't vote which means the tories get in, far more people don't vote than vote Tory and all the time you sit whining they don't care.
They will only worry about the people who vote for them simple as.
So register to vote and use it.

A quick google led me to the 10 countries with the best healthcare in the world.
France 11.1% GDP
Italy 8.7% GDP
San Marino 6.81 % GDP (2015 figure so it's likely to be higher now)
Andorra 6.71% GDP
Malta 8.2% GDP
Singapore 5.9% GDP
Spain 9.1% GDP
Oman 7.4% GDP
Austria 11.5% GDP
Japan 10.7% GDP

& the UK spends 11.9%
Higher than any in the top 10. It doesn't look to be an issue of underfunding

@sleezeandwineparty I can vote all day long but it won't make any difference as I can't vote Tory/labour here in NI.
I will be voting from now on(once I've researched each and every political party) but I bet most make loads of funding promises to the NHS. I don't believe the issue is funding but most people seem to and that no doubt gets votes.
I'll vote for whoever agrees the current NHS model doesn't work and they want to change it and pay NHS staff a lot lot more.

It is notable that the UK spent more as a share of GDP on health care than the EU14, and yet had a lower spend per person
...

Public spending on health care in the UK totalled £177bn in 2019 (the last year for which we have comparable international data), which equates to £2,647 per person for the year. This was slightly above the average for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) at £2,336 per person, but less than the EU14 average (£2,908) and significantly less than the G7 average (£3,523) and our nearest neighbours such as France (£3,308) and Germany (£4,131).

Taxes and health care funding: how does the UK compare?

As the population ages we will need to spend yet more to keep at same level of service.

The NHS at least pre covid at least considered to be generally very efficient for money spent- though I'm not saying there isn't waste and inefficiencies within it - I've seen some for myself.

How long has the UK been giving 11.9% of GDP ? A GDP figure based CV lockdowns.. Does it include borrowings i.e PFI and pensions? Demographics and population? the overall estates of each countries health service? the medical inflation of each country?

The NHS, from 2010 to 2020 was funded at 1% p.a above inflation and at record lows as a % of GDP.

The issues we see with the NHS and Social care go back many years.

www.statista.com/statistics/317708/healthcare-expenditure-as-a-share-of-gdp-in-the-united-kingdom/

This has a graph showing GDP expenditure on Health - from 1980 to 2020 - it's gone from 5.1% of GDP in 1980 to 12.8% in 2020.

Population in 1980 was 56 million now it's 67 million - and it's an aging population and according to ONS the over 90s population has tripled since 1980's plus new drugs and treatments while much better are also more expensive.

I'm not sure if that includes social care costs

www.health.org.uk/news-and-comment/blogs/the-real-cost-of-a-fair-adult-social-care-system This suggests there's been a decease in spending in social care with a rising population meaning an ever increasing funding gap they think by end of 2023/4 there will be a ten billion funding gap.

Demographics are against us. Costs will continue to rise and there will be fewer tax payers as years go on - this has been coming for decades and having a plan or big conversations are pushed back by all the major parties because politically it's not popular.

Absolutely no way.
There are private hospitals for those who wish to use them.
People in the US end up bankrupt because of illness. That doesn’t happen here. All the NHS needs is for it not to be deliberately run into the ground by neoliberalism and the Tory scum.

In reality the NHS is not free though! We do pay for it via part of our NI contributions as well as taxes. But its funds are badly mismanaged and it really is one of the worst healthcare systems I have ever encountered compared to France, Germany and even some third world countries!

Demographics are against us. Costs will continue to rise and there will be fewer tax payers as years go on - this has been coming for decades and having a plan or big conversations are pushed back by all the major parties because politically it's not popular

Nope! your not getting away with that!

Labour trebled NHS spending, from the Thatcher/Major days and the Tories under Cameron, slashed it again.

Belatedly increasing it to where it should have been over the last 10 years... BUT fixing the NHS, esp with staffing, takes years and proper planning, removing the AHP bursary shows what they they think of our health services.

The issues we are seeing are down to one party only (well, actually us, we voted for this mess)

Where is this? The US? And have you lived under that model?

The scare stories bear no resemblance to most of Europe where your health care is not remotely dependent on your employment and state regulated models are in place. Your monthly premium would be nearer to the annual premium for a single person and of course you are not paying NI for it so you have actual choices. There is no "demanding a blue card to get in the ambulance" any more than here.

In my experience access to specialists and any required treatment was quicker that would have been possible in the UK. One of my DC is living in this model now and pays about 200 Euro per month for a couple. You can bring costs down further by electing for an annual excess of a few hundred Euro, you can expand it with extras in terms of luxury facilities for in treatment and other add ons. If you can't afford the premiums then the state helps.

They have both needed to access healthcare in the last 18 months and have been able to access timely and good care and treatment/surgery with choice not only over the doctor but also the times of appointments and hospitals and other treatment providers. This is for conditions, which despite being painful and debilitating would here be classified as "non urgent" and have lengthy wait lists just to get through the first hurdle to see a specialist.

The NHS model is not the only way to provide state supported health care. Both its patients and staff are held back by a structure which runs as mini fiefdoms using antiquated business processes and outdated organisational models - which is where too much money goes. The sheer amount of paper record keeping and poor interoperability is insane and bemuses many visiting medics. People inside and outside of the NHS deserve better.

It's NI, there's nothing worth voting for. They pulled the plug, so do nothing, and still get paid for doing nothing ! So theres no incentive to actually try and go back to work for the people that elected them.

Waste of space.