Go on fess up, who’s eating all the good graduates?

[Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom]

I am currently interviewing grads for an entry level role in the marketing industry and SWEETMARYANDJOSEPH it’s tough going.

I’ve been taking in cohorts of grads for 10 years and in past years they were always keen to learn, chatty, determined to show the best of themselves and keen to know more about the industry. I’ve found graduate hiring to be a really
lovely thing; starting people off on their careers is something I love to do.

This year is bloody horrendous. I’ve done 23 interviews so far (5 roles available) and bar 2, without exception there’s zero enthusiasm or ‘self selling’, it’s more like I’m asking them to do a household chore and they’re getting pocket money in return - it’s ‘well if I really must do this job, what’s in it for me’. For example today a 21 year old cut me off mid sentence as I was talking about possible career progression through the industry and said ‘yeah I’m probably not thinking about that right now, I’m just figuring out what industry I want to get into right now you know? Like what is it about XXXX (that industry I’ve been in my entire career) that you think is worth pursuing because I could do basically anything and be fine you know?’ - very nearly snapped ‘this is an interview not a careers fair’ but held my tongue. Another told me £22k was basically slavery (her exact words) and she couldn’t work for less than £30k - not even graduated yet ffs. Also, oop norf so no London premium either.

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn. They can be earning £30k in 2 years with the training they get at the early stages through this role and I’ve had some go one to £50k+ in that time and yet almost without exception, none of the grads this year have turned up to the interview with any indication that they actually want the job.

What is this?? Is someone sweeping up all the driven, good candidates and paying them megabucks? Or are universities setting mad expectations on salary and not teaching interview skills?

I’m 35 so it’s not like I’m totally out of touch and feel a bit daft saying it but is this a generational thing? Covid?? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

Unlimited annual leave is a fictional gimmick imported from the USA. Because so many US states mandate unlimited carryover and payout people have been avoiding taking time off and using it as a savings plan. US accounting rules demand companies account for the liability in their accounts so they side step it by having no limit so it can’t be quantified. In practice you’ll be turned down for anything beyond normal.

Haha! No, it does however mean you can take 45 days (or get them paid at the end of the year if you don’t take them) plus as many days as you like on top. You still have to be able to do your job which, if you could do a years work in a week you’d be welcome to take the rest of the year off.

I do have one lady who works with me who has a very delivery, project based role. She works to get a project over the line and then takes 3 weeks off after deadline day She’ll do that twice a year, then uses the rest of her unlimited leave for little breaks.

I have another colleague who takes the whole 6 week summer holiday off with a couple of check in days in the middle week, then uses his unlimited days all year for long weekends or days with his kids.

Im not getting the skepticism or scoffing at the leave policy, it’s great!

Op, I would bite your hand off to have a chance to progress like that and start on that salary. However employers are not looking for graduates who wish to return to work after having children. It should be a positive that I won't need maternity leave, but my age is against me (and I'm not that much older than you)

Not at my agency you won’t. Understand that’s an experience in the US, I’m not in the US though.

The best graduates aren’t completely green though. They’ll have had internships, work experience.

We’re in the North West, tech for a high street firm. starting salary 28K for entry level program/project management roles. ‘Ordinary’, not the graduate schemes (where they’re paid even more, rotate through departments and receive leadership training).
Open to any degree.

None of our graduates need training on how to behave in a professional environment. They have at least some relevant skills (using Excel, financial forecasting, managing budgets) via various part-time /temp jobs, volunteering.

Marketing is definitely something they should have SOME experience in. Don’t you have anybody who’s volunteered as a social media manager for a charity ? Run their own business? A lot of society presidents will have made their own posters, run fundraising campaigns, etc.

I think it starts in schools. For context, I'm a secondary teacher 🤦‍♀️

I'm not sure it's really our fault as such in school. I think young people hear often that everything's going to shit, and that everything is futile, and at the same time they're seeing social media stars earning crazy money for doing bugger all, and they're being told to "know their own worth" and "practise saying no".

(FYI they are told this bullshit, again on socials, by people who've figured out that this what people WANT to hear. Nothing more. They have not the faintest clue whether this approach actually leads to happiness, they just want the likes and views)

Are you in Manchester?

@Liebig

I was responding to a post which stated that the average salary is 31k and simply stating that it was incorrect. Whether the 'average' is meaningful or not is completely irrelevant to the post.

Science and chemical engineering are a minority of graduates. I didn't do these and started on 28k 15 years ago.

Granted some will be earning below the the median, but OP is offering almost a third less. That's an insult and a piss take.

I was watching a policing show the other day and the officer was around 20 and did all of his police training via Zoom. He seemed totally out of his depth.

22K for a graduate, no thank you. Even public sector offer more.

Umm can I come and work for you! Admittedly I’m 29 and graduated 8 years ago so probably a bit long in the tooth for what you want but this sounds great to me!

Maybe your negative attitude towards them isn't helping?

I don't blame grads for not being enternally grateful for a job. By now young people know what BS the workplace is, and aren't exactly skipping around with glee about working their arses off for 40+ years in order to only afford a grotty room in a flatshare. Years ago a good job guaranteed you progression and a comfortable life. Now it doesn't. Also I was on £20k as a grad in London circa 2011 and that was low to average then (and not in an especially highly skilled industry).

*eternally

Having sold myself too cheaply for my first job, I dread to think how much the 'match your current' or '£3k over your current' offers cost me.
Excluding outliers (Goldman Sachs, Big 4 accountants, big name consultancies that operate a rank 'n' yank system), would the following all be within a fairly narrow salary range nationally, are placements valued or do employers need to work from local costs upwards when sharpening their pitch?

Creative industry with placement experience
Creative industry no industry experience
Science with placement experience
Science with no industry experience
Financial with placement experience
Financial with no industry experience

@Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom Not had DID yet, but had a broad range including multiple in one candidate! I feel uncomfortable I know such private things about them now. Is it now a thing to be so up front? It goes against how I would behave in jobseeking.
My understanding in marketing roles has always been that you need to be able to market yourself if you hope to market anything else. so why lead with something that’s going to distract the interviewer? Fwiw, I don’t mean hiding something fundamental but if I had a fantastic candidate I thought was great and after offer they told me ‘oh my autism means I’d really appreciate it if you gave me instructions via email then f2f’ or ‘occasionally I might have a bad mental health day and need to work from home’ I’d support them as much as possible to perform as effectively as I saw they did in their interview.

I can only speak for my specific bit of the business, but my lot take between 40 and 55 days. The average is 48.6. Interestingly though we have very low instances of sick leave.

@Herewegoagain84
Salaries are generally high in the legal industry so the question becomes "why does an applicant select one company over another?".
Candidates have more options now, for a variety of reasons. Anecdotally, I moved roles a couple of months ago.
Off the bat, compared to previous moves, interviews were via Teams, so I could easily fit 4 into a single day and most roles had a significant remote component so I could spread my net wider. This means more options and, yes, I cared less about each individual role so I vetted potential employers harder and was less concerned about impressing.
You're likely experiencing something similar, writ large.

so what are other industries paying and specifically which industries (degree subjects are non specific, so it’s not like they’ve studied marketing)
You probably want good numeracy skills for marketing, correct? I made an offer earlier this year for £36K + bonus + 1 day/ week study leave for a great maths grad, and it wasn't atypical.

You are being quite selective in your example of "years ago" @Beafortea . Years ago it was the norm to work your arse off your whole life and still live in poverty.

Yep. We pay £29 and we can take our pick from some very clever, engaged people. You know what they say - you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

So I'm a similar age to you OP, and even though the basic starting isn't amazing it's not terrible especially with the expected progression. Is remote working an option to widen the pool of candidates geographically?

If "good graduates" are supposed to be happy working for 22k what should "bad graduates" be earning? What should people who didn't go to university be earning?

There are some people a bit out of touch with reality IMO.

One) yes Aldi pays well, it also involves shift work/weekend work/BH work, which MANY MANY people want to avoid

Two) that annual leave entitlement is amazing, removing the "unlimited" aspect, 45 days is phenomenal. Don't care who disagrees with that, it's FAR BEYOND the realm of standard. 25 days is considered decent to most people outside of Mumsnet.

Three) if you can train a new staff member with no previous experience in 3 months, the job doesn't require much skill at all.

Four) free training is literally invaluable.

22k isn't amazing, but the package itself IS.

Just look on any jobsite, 22k seems to be bang in the middle for a lot of jobs, in the north.

Average, people REALLY need to understand what this means..it DOESNT mean "most common" FFS. It means some people will earn far far far above, and others below.

Also, this is for 35hours a week. That is a low low amount of work.

She's actually offering £13 an hour. £4 ABOVE NMW.

Just as an FYI from my peer group from literally 3-4 years ago:

• fresh junior doctors out of medical school earnt 23k


• fresh nurses earnt 21k


• teachers earnt similar 20-21k

...just providing a bit of perspective.

You'll only be getting the dregs on that salary!

The more desired a role is, the lower you can pay. It was a long time ago but when I recruited graduates, you could pay those wanting to do Fashion Buying a lower wage as there were thousands upon thousands of graduates bashing down then door to take the role.