Go on fess up, who’s eating all the good graduates?

[Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom]

I am currently interviewing grads for an entry level role in the marketing industry and SWEETMARYANDJOSEPH it’s tough going.

I’ve been taking in cohorts of grads for 10 years and in past years they were always keen to learn, chatty, determined to show the best of themselves and keen to know more about the industry. I’ve found graduate hiring to be a really
lovely thing; starting people off on their careers is something I love to do.

This year is bloody horrendous. I’ve done 23 interviews so far (5 roles available) and bar 2, without exception there’s zero enthusiasm or ‘self selling’, it’s more like I’m asking them to do a household chore and they’re getting pocket money in return - it’s ‘well if I really must do this job, what’s in it for me’. For example today a 21 year old cut me off mid sentence as I was talking about possible career progression through the industry and said ‘yeah I’m probably not thinking about that right now, I’m just figuring out what industry I want to get into right now you know? Like what is it about XXXX (that industry I’ve been in my entire career) that you think is worth pursuing because I could do basically anything and be fine you know?’ - very nearly snapped ‘this is an interview not a careers fair’ but held my tongue. Another told me £22k was basically slavery (her exact words) and she couldn’t work for less than £30k - not even graduated yet ffs. Also, oop norf so no London premium either.

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn. They can be earning £30k in 2 years with the training they get at the early stages through this role and I’ve had some go one to £50k+ in that time and yet almost without exception, none of the grads this year have turned up to the interview with any indication that they actually want the job.

What is this?? Is someone sweeping up all the driven, good candidates and paying them megabucks? Or are universities setting mad expectations on salary and not teaching interview skills?

I’m 35 so it’s not like I’m totally out of touch and feel a bit daft saying it but is this a generational thing? Covid?? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

I've recently been interviewing grads for a freelance marketing role with the rate set equivalent of £25k pa and everyone I spoke with was bright, enthusiastic and very keen. Granted I work in a niche industry, but I do think your salary is a bit low - when I was researching for the rate for my vacancy I saw average entry salary in marketing at £24k. It doesn't seem like a lot of difference but it matters hugely when you're on that.

Is it working from home?

It’s hot, I’ve just come out of my last (awful) interview of the day and I’m grumpy. I can assure you my terrible attitude doesn’t come in to it.

Hilariously the feedback from the recruitment team for myself and the other interviewers is always how much the candidates enjoy the interview and talk about how they really want the role - I just wish they’d let that come though at interview!

This in droves. It's the same in my industry. Over confident and never listen to their colleagues with years of experience. They think they know better and have been instrumental in the decline of my Industry's reputation. It is actually both shocking and disheartening. (btw it's not an unpopular opinion, it's more that people are too scared to say anything anymore.)

We have a cost of living crisis and housing and rents are extortionately high. Maybe someone more financially secure and advanced in their career would appreciate this, but I think that most young people would much rather have the money.

If they wanted a part time job, then they can apply for one.

We are having same problem, really poor, disinterested applicants. We are offering more but it is a data role within the finance industry in London so I still think it is low but not my decision. My team manager is going to try and get this increased.

Banking, law,.or medicine first, then I guess filters down from those.

Hybrid - they can work from home if they want to, we ask that they have one dedicated day in the office so they can have their 121’s and f2f training but all other training and work can be done from home - most of last years cohort do 2-3 days in the office.

Then theirs the more entitled ones, and others who think they can wing it, or others that need improved people skills.

Sadly not, I'm in the south and have just looked for graduate training jobs and the salary is around 22k. For 25k they not only want graduates but graduates with additional qualifications

People need to stop thinking they can carry on paying these lousy salaries. £22k was a reasonable graduate starting salary when I finished my degree 16 years ago!!!! Cost of living has gone up 10% this year. £22k this year buys a graduate what £20k bought them last year, it's barely above minimum wage. Stop trying to suppress wage growth no wonder young people can barely afford to live

I would be annoyed if my son went to an interview with that attitude (on display). But I'd also tell him to avoid any employer who acted like they were doing him (or anyone) a favour by taking them on. Or investing in them. That's what good employers do.

Also OP you’re not competing in a regional market anymore. There are loads of hybrid roles, even for once a week in the office. Manchester is only 2 hours away from London by train. Not an issue for young people with no family commitments.

This obviously wasn’t an issue pre-pandemic but companies are having to rethink.

They won't get it. My employer has tried carrying on advertising jobs with similar and all that's happened is few/no applicants, certainly none of the standard they want.

Welcome to late stage capitalism, where the lumpenproletariat incense a £22,000 per year wage as a favour given to them.

Not exactly minimum wage though is it? Its actually 4k more than minimum wage, for people with NO actual experience in the sector despite their degree. As a starting rate its absolutely fine as long as there is a progression pathway and they know how long it will be before a significant raise (as long as they meet learning targets of course).

@Yessha Why is it bad to be upfront about mental health problems? I didn't realise it was still a taboo topic... shouldn't employers be accommodating to any employees mental health problems, same as physical. And maybe interviewees want to know that you do have things in place if they do need that support?

That's interesting because I've had the opposite experience - I think the quality of trainees and paralegals is improving and know I'd never have got a training contract these days. They are insanely bright and still not getting training contracts particularly easily. Quite a few work in paralegal roles for some years before getting a training contract. If I give them something to do, they do it, and they do it well. And it's proper work, not glorified photocopying.

20 years ago as a graduate with decent work experience my starting salary in a marketing and comms role was £18k + 25 days holiday + bank holidays. I see so many roles offering only minimum wage plus just 20 days holiday and expecting the creme de la creme. Meanwhile I worked recently with a guy who was 2 years post grad and on £50k. I know what would have been more appealing to me as a fresh faced grad!

At the risk of sounding snobbish - why is everyone going on about ‘graduate training jobs’? there’s no such thing.
Some jobs require specific skills. Specific degree, specific professional qualifications.
Some jobs require ‘graduates’, i.e People with demonstrable academic abilities.
the vast majority of jobs really don’t, and used to be done by school leavers/apprentices who learnt on the jobs The only reason why they specify ‘graduate’ is because of the sheer number of graduates, plenty with degrees of little academic rigour.

Young people are starting to realise that university isn’t always worth it

Mean and median are both averages. Median is the appropriate measure of average to use for wage comparisons and mean is very rarely used for that purpose.

So while it would be preferable to specify "the median full-time wage is c.£31k" just to prevent people misunderstanding, it's certainly correct to say "the average full-time wage is c.£31K".

My friend was recently interviewing graduates and her tip is this;
Look for the ones who don't go to the high flying school and who have worked part time to put themselves through college as you find those who are self starters and not bring propped up by parents They have a good work ethic and their ambition is their own and they have had to fight to get this far..
By the way my ds grad salary in lreland was 30,000 euro and his next job straight after was 55000.

@InChocolateWeTrust yep +1

Professional Services exec here - we pay a lot more than you, OP, but I tend to agree on substance (albeit without the compensation complaints).

Recent grad we've just hired to me, last week (relevant: I'm the boss of his boss' boss): "I'm escalating this because I asked my supervisor and then my manager to be taken off duties that require me to be interacting with clients because it triggers my anxiety. They have both denied my request. This makes me feel disrespected! What are you going to do to address the situation?"

It's the entitlement and lack of sense of reality that kills me! This is a bloody consulting firm, FFS! Dealing with clients is, basically, what we do.

FWIW, I have put my boy the graduate on back-office duties - yes, in preparation for that chat with HR during which I will need to demonstrate I've been as accommodating as humanly possible. To absolutely nobody's surprise, he's now complaining that he doesn't find invoicing fulfilling and wishes to work on "actual consulting" work [you know, the one that involves clients ...].

He's extreme but far from the only one!

And, no, I don't blame the grads. I blame their parents, teachers, recruiters, and ourselves for not stating clearly what we expected!

I’m also coming across the idea more and more that we work for money, and shouldn’t have to pretend otherwise. Nobody actually goes to work for fun, and it shouldn’t be wrong to say so. Obviously that doesn’t mean you should act (or dress) like you left your surfboard outside, but corporations have much more of a reputation of expecting ‘enthusiastic and motivated employees to go above and beyond’ while being shafting employees as much as they can get away with and paying decidedly below average wages.

I’m not saying your company is, but that many companies do. It’s becoming the expected employee/employer relationship model, and if they’ve had minimal wage gigs through uni, that’s what they’ll have experienced so far, isn’t it?