Go on fess up, who’s eating all the good graduates?

[Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom]

I am currently interviewing grads for an entry level role in the marketing industry and SWEETMARYANDJOSEPH it’s tough going.

I’ve been taking in cohorts of grads for 10 years and in past years they were always keen to learn, chatty, determined to show the best of themselves and keen to know more about the industry. I’ve found graduate hiring to be a really
lovely thing; starting people off on their careers is something I love to do.

This year is bloody horrendous. I’ve done 23 interviews so far (5 roles available) and bar 2, without exception there’s zero enthusiasm or ‘self selling’, it’s more like I’m asking them to do a household chore and they’re getting pocket money in return - it’s ‘well if I really must do this job, what’s in it for me’. For example today a 21 year old cut me off mid sentence as I was talking about possible career progression through the industry and said ‘yeah I’m probably not thinking about that right now, I’m just figuring out what industry I want to get into right now you know? Like what is it about XXXX (that industry I’ve been in my entire career) that you think is worth pursuing because I could do basically anything and be fine you know?’ - very nearly snapped ‘this is an interview not a careers fair’ but held my tongue. Another told me £22k was basically slavery (her exact words) and she couldn’t work for less than £30k - not even graduated yet ffs. Also, oop norf so no London premium either.

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn. They can be earning £30k in 2 years with the training they get at the early stages through this role and I’ve had some go one to £50k+ in that time and yet almost without exception, none of the grads this year have turned up to the interview with any indication that they actually want the job.

What is this?? Is someone sweeping up all the driven, good candidates and paying them megabucks? Or are universities setting mad expectations on salary and not teaching interview skills?

I’m 35 so it’s not like I’m totally out of touch and feel a bit daft saying it but is this a generational thing? Covid?? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

If she's going to go down that route, the vast vast majority of jobs are "bullshit jobs" at the end of the day.

I think hiring non-grands, or reentries to the workforce, is the future in these kinds of jobs where a degree isn't actually useful in and of itself.

The degree in anything is just a cost that means the individuals are going to need a higher salary as they will likely have loan payments.

It's basically an apprenticeship, you could take anyone looking to get into the industry if they seem capable and talented.

Offer £26-28 as a starting wage with fewer benefits, look for people 40+ who have been stuck on term time only contracts in schools or admin in the NHS for years, treat breaks as sacrosanct and she'd get intelligent, adaptable, practically bulletproof employees who won't bugger off halfway round the world after two years or leave for a competitor at the first opportunity.

Offer £26-28 as a starting wage with fewer benefits, look for people 40+ who have been stuck on term time only contracts in schools or admin in the NHS for years, treat breaks as sacrosanct and she'd get intelligent, adaptable, practically bulletproof employees who won't bugger off halfway round the world after two years or leave for a competitor at the first opportunity.

This.

Interesting thread. Loads of different issues. I have quite strong views. I like the millennial job interview sketch video, where he sacks her! Yet I agree with sinek on things. My closest friend who is an employment lawyer says she worked hours and days for years, things that new lawyers just won't do. The balance between graduate with no experience versus apprentice is a good question. Ds1 interviewed for top accounting apprenticeships but turned then down, choosing a linked degree which will have regular work experience across the years. Whether that's a good option I hope so!

I don’t know the answer to most of your questions OP, but my partner lectures in university, mainly those in their final year and he’s said similar to you about a fair few of them. The arrogance seems to piss him off most. Not just towards him, but the insinuation that anyone who employs them would be lucky to have them. This often the attitude before their grades are given to them. I’d like to say receiving a 2:2 or below would knock that attitude out of them but it doesn’t seem to 🤷‍♀️

This.

Open it up to non grads and you'll likely find people that will bite your hand off.

Maybe try non Grads, people who actually want a job and not entitled shits who think they are better than everyone else just because they went to Uni.

And this is how a nation ends up with a skills shortage.

V low salary, I started on £24k in retail 25 years ago as a grad.

I don't see the arrogance when I'm interviewing them - it's the arrogance in their applications that comes across very strongly - amongst the typos and bullshit. I'm never quite sure whether the problem is that they think they need to sound very confident of their own abilities - and it's good to be confident about things you have achieved but there are limits, they end up sounding naive and absolutely clueless. There's a curious mix of defiance, arrogance, insecurity and poor self-awareness - it's almost worth holding off for the Masters grads as they'll have gained some more maturity. Due to their age and their lack of track record, you can never be quite sure how much work you need to put in to get someone who can actually do the job well - grads are a risky hire, no one likes to sack anyone - despite what some might like to believe - we'd avoid hiring grads if we could but in this market we're forced to do the parenting (because that's what it often feels like).
I'm dreading the point where the actual parents get involved in the process - I'm sure it's not that far off!

I'm now wondering whether this sort of package is standard at all agencies, and/or wishing I lived closer to Manchester! I've been in-house for 5 years, but progression is now more or less only available when someone else leaves, which isn't particularly incentivising - especially as salary is banded, so no progression also means no salary increase. I like the idea of being loyal to a company, but if I'm missing out on that sort of salary and benefits package, then maybe I should be looking elsewhere. Thanks for the career inspiration OP!

Tell her to read The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.

@Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom

45 days’ holiday? Wow. In my industry (professional services) 25 starting rising to 30 max 32 with long service is the norm, perhaps with the ability to buy another 2 or three. I thought that was not bad. Is 45 really standard in marketing?

at least she knows there’s a price in her principles 😂

This sounds like a good idea. It's a pretty benefits heavy package you're offering relative to the salary, and while I'm not saying there's no place for any of that, it can be an inherently frustrating and patronising thing to basically be told that the company will choose how part of your renumeration is spent. You will probably be better just upping the cash.

The universities have made them stay in their rooms and do a lot online, placement opportunities all cancelled.

Er, no @49er that was government policy: compulsory lockdowns followed by work from home commands.

Not the choice of most universities who put in enormous resources with only a few weeks’ notice.

When we ask our team if they want benefits or cash - they choose cash every time - unless we can get a genuine discount for something they genuinely value - it's not worth it, choice in how to spend your salary is a bigger perk, they want the money up front!
We provide private health care - it's a compulsory benefit that benefits the business and the employee - we just can't rely on the NHS to get them well again. And saying full sick pay is not a benefit, just shows how unaware the posters on this thread are about half the workforce in the UK who only have access to statutory sick pay and would be very grateful for full sick pay.

Ds (21) has just graduated in Politics and International Relations. He was at a Scottish Uni which means a 4 year degree, so at least he got a year and a half of "normal" Uni life for Covid hit. He also played decent level rugby outside of the Uni and got paid to coach rugby to two of the local schools, so he had a wider perspective than just Uni. (He'd been made redundant by Carphone Warehouse just before the Covid shutdown when they closed all their standalone stores).

He's been fortunate that he's got a job in the (fairly niche) field that he wanted - public affairs. And still in Scotland, so for the moment he's moved back home (he'll get settled in the job about 2,months and then put out feelers fir a flat). He's the most junior of junior of their account executives

It was his 3rd interview in this field, so he was delighted to get it (interview only took place a few weeks ago). He's earning £23k per annum, mostly working from home. None of the fancy extras like gym or free food (it's a relatively small/new communications and public affairs agency) but he gets 30 days holiday plus his birthday (and statutory holidays) per annum plus he'll get an allowance for working from home (he's not sure how much that is yet, as the boss has been on holiday since he started last week and we're going to take it off him anyway while he's staying at home ).

He's earning more than his flat mate who also graduated in PIR and has got a 12 week internship with the Foreign Office His flat mate is only on about £21 or £22k. And to make it worse, at the very last minute they moved it from a Scottish location to central London, with no help with accommodation

He took all three interviews he'd had really seriously and was disappointed not to make it to the 2nd interview stage/be offered with the first two. But the one that he got is even more "public affairs" than the other two, so he's happy

He didn't want to go to London just yet (that was a back up for him via the work that he does as Head of Politics for a volunteer pressure organisation - the founder works for a company that could've offered him an internship) although he does want to once he's more established. He is happy to spend a few years not earning "that" much while he gets experience.

So in my anecdotal experience of one, what you're offering "in the North" (given that Scotland is even further North ) seems ok and I can empathise with your frustrations. I hope you find the rest person soon

We want you to pay us our worth. We've learned how to not be taken for granted, we have learned to ask for more, and we've collectively decided not to sacrifice our precious lives for peanuts.

I think 22k is low .Maybe you think in the North it isnt ,but obv something is wrong or you wouldnt still be looking! Its very much an employees market right now and you are not attracting anyone.I think somewhere in the region of 26/28k would be more realistic

It’s already a buyers market for the best grads, for in-demand fields.
I got 6+ offers after graduating from a top uni, and cancelled further interviewers. Most of my peers had multiple offers too.
Now as a software dev I regularly get lots of offers. Quick callbacks for stuff I apply for.

It’s a market like any other. Why would I put up with less than my worth?

Interesting article in the guardian today which touches on some of the things discussed here. People just want different things now, whether that be a result of covid or a generational thing https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jul/19/a-bigger-paycheck-id-rather-watch-the-sunset-is-this-the-end-of-ambition

I wonder if in your case people aren’t interested in where they’ll be in 5 years anymore!

Yeah I'm not surprised. Things like eg reimbursing train fares, that's all very well and some people will like it, but what if I already live close to the workplace and have plans to walk, or will get a lift, or there's no train stop near me or I just don't want to use it? Health related stuff is a bit different I agree.

So how are you paying rent, bills and buying food etc?