Go on fess up, who’s eating all the good graduates?

[Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom]

I am currently interviewing grads for an entry level role in the marketing industry and SWEETMARYANDJOSEPH it’s tough going.

I’ve been taking in cohorts of grads for 10 years and in past years they were always keen to learn, chatty, determined to show the best of themselves and keen to know more about the industry. I’ve found graduate hiring to be a really
lovely thing; starting people off on their careers is something I love to do.

This year is bloody horrendous. I’ve done 23 interviews so far (5 roles available) and bar 2, without exception there’s zero enthusiasm or ‘self selling’, it’s more like I’m asking them to do a household chore and they’re getting pocket money in return - it’s ‘well if I really must do this job, what’s in it for me’. For example today a 21 year old cut me off mid sentence as I was talking about possible career progression through the industry and said ‘yeah I’m probably not thinking about that right now, I’m just figuring out what industry I want to get into right now you know? Like what is it about XXXX (that industry I’ve been in my entire career) that you think is worth pursuing because I could do basically anything and be fine you know?’ - very nearly snapped ‘this is an interview not a careers fair’ but held my tongue. Another told me £22k was basically slavery (her exact words) and she couldn’t work for less than £30k - not even graduated yet ffs. Also, oop norf so no London premium either.

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn. They can be earning £30k in 2 years with the training they get at the early stages through this role and I’ve had some go one to £50k+ in that time and yet almost without exception, none of the grads this year have turned up to the interview with any indication that they actually want the job.

What is this?? Is someone sweeping up all the driven, good candidates and paying them megabucks? Or are universities setting mad expectations on salary and not teaching interview skills?

I’m 35 so it’s not like I’m totally out of touch and feel a bit daft saying it but is this a generational thing? Covid?? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

I don’t doubt rents have gone up in Manchester, but there are many, many cities that are more expensive - Cambridge, Oxford, Winchester, Brighton, Bath, even Truro.

It seems like a societal change. We are finding it hard to recruit in general with people overall. Reading CVs, personal statements and going through the interviews has been awful for the last year or two. We usually have to put the ad out twice for the same role, we get a lot of arrogant, underskilled people who ask for 20k over starting pay. I've come to realise a lot of people think cocky attitudes = confidence.

To be fair, it should be a candidates market if you look at it on paper at the moment but not within companies where jobs are flexible and work from home permanently or hybrid. The sectors that are a candidates dream for easily securing a job are most likely ones they won't want to work in.

I would rather put the job out multiple times if I have to than to accept some of the characters I've had to interview, with the poor skill set I've seen.

I graduated in 2017 and think you were massively underpaid!

Definitely cut the holiday for the first year to a standard 20 days plus BH, and increase the salary. Then for the second year, add a bit more holiday and a bit more salary. For the third year onwards, give them a significantly higher salary with the choice of 'buying' holiday days from the company for pay reduction.

If you can't afford to increase salaries but are instead offering short hours and lots of unlimited holiday, it sounds like you are trying to wring a full-time-equivalent workload out of people who just cram the work into fewer days. This sounds like a con: full-time-workload for less pay.

A bit shocked at those saying the role pays peanuts. Marketing and comms professional here who started off in an agency in Manchester on sweet FA for CV building experience around 10 years back. £22k is fine. Particularly given the significant training you provide and other benefits. I now work in house for a large third sector brand, our graduate scheme is massively over subscribed with people applying that got their degrees from Oxbridge. The starting salary was £25k and that was pre-pandemic in London (weighting included unfortunately but with loads of training and room to progress in a competitive sector). Salary depends on profession, on sector, how desirable that sector is to work in (LOADS of factors at play there). Even in these day of high living costs a graduate scheme is a starting role, a foot on the ladder, not the final destination.

A bit shocked at those saying the role pays peanuts. Marketing and comms professional here who started off in an agency in Manchester on sweet FA for CV building experience around 10 years back.

The world has changed and your experiences as a new grad are now out of date. It's a different planet to pre 2020 now.

My DS would love that role. He is still an undergraduate but has attended talks on marketing roles and is really keen. He’s held down really tough jobs in hospitality and according to his bosses been a fantastic worker. Also wants to stay in the North. It’s good to hear these opportunities are out there.

Please do not misquote me. It's not the 35 hours a week, is the fact that you pay peanuts and then say that some weeks they will have to work more than that. As i stated early, we pay £29k, fully remote, people home early on Fridays. We get top performers and we are making huge profits. 20% bonus last year. Yes, on top of the 29k.

Actually, what makes frustrating reading is the people who think that £22 with the idea that maybe there will be more at the end of the rainbow is an acceptable pay for graduates. That was my entry level job in 2002, and in an industry that pays notoriously bad.

This, entirely.
I have just hired for two positions, also in marketing. The pay was considerably more than £22k, and we had NO shortage of terrific candidates. Both adverts were posted for less than a week before we had too many applicants. I interviewed the top six for each role and had no experiences anywhere close to what you're describing.

Like hell is it. I'm mid 40s and only just got to 25K in a job that requires a degree. I'm up North though, where historically it hasn't been so expensive.

Surely they know about the 22k before they’ve started though… so why sit there with an attitude. They shouldn’t be applying if they don’t want to work for that. I left my last job because they suddenly wanted me to take on the graduates and they were all freaking useless and it was painful teaching them. They were exactly the same as you’ve described. One girl’s IT setup wasn’t working properly. So naturally I asked “what did IT say when you called?” to which she answered “I haven’t, I don’t like speaking to people on the phone.” 🤷‍♀️

I’m guessing you’re still not being paid well?

We pay £40k - still get a load of unenthused grads who can't write or spell. As someone mentioned up thread - if we break even on them in the first year we'll be doing well. There does feel like a remarkable amount of handholding needed.

Dh had an applicant going to a 40k salary who included a science award for effort when he was 15 as one of his achievements… the guy must be about 32 ish going by graduation year. Utterly bizarre.

Salary.

I bet the reason behind it is the lockdown, opportunities for improving their social skills have been massively reduced for this year’s cohort.

This. If there’s one piece of advice I’d give to new grads, especially women, it’s not to accept a crappy starting salary out of uni because it follows you around each time you apply for a new job and they ask for your current salary.

22k is laughable. That was the pay 20 years ago when I graduated. I think there lies the issue, yes better paying graduate schemes are sucking them up- does anyone work for that unless they have no options?

@Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom what company is this please? The perks sound unreal! The holidays alone would be worth it for me to take a pay cut.

Our graduate scheme starts at £35k with a £5k signing bonus and a performance bonus on top. This is in tech. They rotate around different tech roles (normally 3 rotations in 2 years). We don't require any particular subject - all training is provided. Also, we're northern (East Mids). The attitudes you're describing aren't great, cutting someone off mid-sentence in an interview is rude. But interviews are a two-way street and graduates often apply to multiple schemes as they're not sure what area they want to go into... that's one of the reasons why grad schemes then rotate the grads into multiple roles.

I suggest you advertise this as a two year apprenticeship with the first and second year salaries advertised (so 22K in the first year and a minimum of 30K in the second).

These will be all the graduates who started Oct 2019 and mostly remote learned due to COVID and had a shite time.

22k is very low, wherever in the country.

No need to be salty. They do know the salary is £22k before they apply.

Hilarious

I love that you have an image in your head of the grads all shuffling their feet through the streets of Manchester, raiding the bins for scraps while we lash them into the workhouse for a pittance while Pankhurst watches on with a solitary tear rolling down her statue face

They work an average 35 hour week, 3-4 days from home, we pay for their annual train passes or parking so no travel costs to and from the office (fuel has just been subsidised as well), whichever they need. There’s free gym membership to a gym round the corner and they get breakfast and lunch for free when they’re in the office. They get 45 days annual leave as basic with an additional number of unlimited days if they need it. Private healthcare and access to private mental health services including CBT and psychotherapy for free. There’s also an excellent pension, bike to work, flat share schemes, a grant for at home working equipment, a monthly ‘top up’ for costs incurred from working from
home (towards energy bills, paid at the standard rate for electricity so it’s just gone up a lot).

For this we ask for zero experience, not even a degree now. We offer them a year of training in multiple disciplines so they can work out which branch of marketing suits them before they settle. They get a clear progression plan with milestones they know about from their first day, and unless they completely screw up they’re essentially on £30k 18 months in. From there, there’s a progression to £50k within 4-5 years.

This has been called exploitation, slavery and starvation wages on this thread. Mumsnet is WILD.

That said I do take the point that £22k isn’t what it used to be and needs an update - I’ll be feeding that back for sure. It might be we drop the train travel benefit (costs an absolute fortune, it’s worth about £3k a year) and up the salary or something.