Go on fess up, who’s eating all the good graduates?

[Whatsyournameandwheredyoucomefrom]

I am currently interviewing grads for an entry level role in the marketing industry and SWEETMARYANDJOSEPH it’s tough going.

I’ve been taking in cohorts of grads for 10 years and in past years they were always keen to learn, chatty, determined to show the best of themselves and keen to know more about the industry. I’ve found graduate hiring to be a really
lovely thing; starting people off on their careers is something I love to do.

This year is bloody horrendous. I’ve done 23 interviews so far (5 roles available) and bar 2, without exception there’s zero enthusiasm or ‘self selling’, it’s more like I’m asking them to do a household chore and they’re getting pocket money in return - it’s ‘well if I really must do this job, what’s in it for me’. For example today a 21 year old cut me off mid sentence as I was talking about possible career progression through the industry and said ‘yeah I’m probably not thinking about that right now, I’m just figuring out what industry I want to get into right now you know? Like what is it about XXXX (that industry I’ve been in my entire career) that you think is worth pursuing because I could do basically anything and be fine you know?’ - very nearly snapped ‘this is an interview not a careers fair’ but held my tongue. Another told me £22k was basically slavery (her exact words) and she couldn’t work for less than £30k - not even graduated yet ffs. Also, oop norf so no London premium either.

I’m not expecting gratitude for the interview, I don’t even expect them to know anything about the industry and I’ll pay them £22k for the privilege of being fairly useless for a year while they learn. They can be earning £30k in 2 years with the training they get at the early stages through this role and I’ve had some go one to £50k+ in that time and yet almost without exception, none of the grads this year have turned up to the interview with any indication that they actually want the job.

What is this?? Is someone sweeping up all the driven, good candidates and paying them megabucks? Or are universities setting mad expectations on salary and not teaching interview skills?

I’m 35 so it’s not like I’m totally out of touch and feel a bit daft saying it but is this a generational thing? Covid?? WHAT IS HAPPENING?

House prices, cost of living and the years of employers taking the piss.

Plus youngsters now, especially the middle class you’ll be interviewing, have been raised in the era of knowing your own worth. No more being whacked around the head and being told to get back in their place by any boomers, they’re well aware that only youth matters and that they are the centres of the universe. Interesting combination.

These benefits sound fantastic to me, who graduated in 2018 and got a job on 17k with 27 days annual leave. However, they probably won't sound amazing to someone who is used to having a 10 week summer holiday plus 4 weeks at Christmas and Easter and who has been told by their university that a graduate starting salary is 25-30k minimum.

If they're anything like I was then, by September, they'll have worked out that what you're offering is actually incredible.

I don't think extra holiday would be that attractive to a grad who couldn't afford to go anywhere and is most likely living in a flatshare (plus probably no children so don't need it for childcare). Id have ended up using it to do a part time job just to be able to afford to live! At that age I'd have much preferred a better salary and less holiday.

I’ve got one similar at the moment - I’m his great great line manager and he asked me for a pay rise he’d been denied twice by his line manager grandma because ‘he felt he wasn’t listened to while decisions were being made’ - he was listened to, he was just told no!

I work in a RG careers service with humanities students who are often interested in marketing jobs.

I think this cohort has had a tough time - covid, remote learning, strikes, etc. This has impacted their ability to network, which means their understanding of the graduate world of work has been delayed/is nonexistent beyond part-time jobs. As a result, they aren't as confident speaking to employers and presenting themselves well. There has also been little opportunity to get work experience/internships during covid or develop the essential communication skills that

Mental health has taken a battering, and there was a drop in attendance this last semester in lectures/seminars. Likewise, attending careers workshops and appointments has been low priority because many students needed to just push through to the end of their degrees.

I spend a lot of time boosting confidence at the moment as many grads are overwhelmed and lost with the whole job-hunting process. The finalists who have engaged with the careers service and who I speak with in guidance sessions are great and motivated, but that is a small proportion of the overall student body. We try to offer lots of support and resources, but it’s hard to reach students due to the above. I hope you find some good candidates for your role, but I think employers have to accept that this cohort isn't going to be as 'polished' as previous ones.

But I'd do it. But the adverts are all so specific, they want a couple of years of industry experience. I'd work for minimum wage if a company was going to invest in me.

This isn’t right…you can’t come up with a calculation from thin air as you don’t know how many hours are expected.

my full time job is 35 hours…so based on minimum wage (not what I am on) it would be £16700, and then the OP is offering approx 1/3 more than minimum wage, for someone with zero experience at all.

you can’t just pluck figures from thin air…

My DS is in the cohort you talk about and he’s been offered a role (Yorkshire) for starting 27k with company car, his friend is working in London for 42k plus very good relocation package. They both came out of university with Firsts and some great experience working part time and their employers have recognised they are good candidates and committed to them early (around 3 months ago)

I think your timing for September starts is going to attract the less motivated who are behind the leaders and the salary is not great either.

What is the point of 45 days or unlimited annual leave when you only earn 22k a year and can't afford to go anywhere or do anything?

You have an apprentice budget and expectations but you’re asking for somebody that’s invested thousands of pounds and time into their education

The universities font help with this either
Setting them all up to think theyre the second coming and that everything will fall in their laps

I had the same with last years cohort too - i don’t mind them not being polished it’s the entitlement that’s the problem. You’re probably right though and it’s a lack of understanding the expectations generally.

Give them less annual leave and raise the salary to about 27k and you might get better applicants.

Apols for the typos!

raised in the era of knowing your own worth.

Not sure this is quite accurate!

Having graduated at the height of the financial crisis I am, perhaps, a little biased: I was just happy to land a job in my field. Any job. The fact that it happened to be a rather fancy grad scheme made me suspect I might be dreaming.

But what we're seeing now is kind of the opposite extreme. "Knowing your worth" in any meaningful sense surely must include some awareness of the fact that you are a recent graduate and hence, no, client C-level executives won't take much of an interest in your personal take on their business strategy [actual demand I've heard several times over].

Now, that's just utterly removed from reality!

Although they do sound a bit twattish and ungrateful, I’m on team interviewee here! I have respect (in a weird way) for their cocky, ballsy, self-assured outlook and am quite envious of people like that.

If I’d stuck up for myself as a graduate I feel I’d actually have been more successful. I also might not have wasted my degree and ended up in a series of shit, low pay jobs, some quite unsuitable for someone like me such as care (I’m squeamish and don’t really like people all that much).

And yes, £22k is fine if you’re young. Sadly, due to poor mh and job hopping, I’m not on much more than this even though I am bright and have 2 x degrees.

I still can’t believe that in the mid 2000s, I was almost begging to slave away for free in various film runner type roles to get into the industry- I certainly wouldn’t entertain that idea now! Having a sense of self-worth and direction is brilliant, and I applaud them.

Yes, this!

Maybe get rid of the degree requirement (which you've already said you'll do) and aim it at parents who haven't had the opportunity to go to university or get a career - plenty of people had children at a young age and as they get older, start wanting to see what they can achieve careerwise. You can still do the same training scheme and have it as an entry level job with career progression.

In marketing, trained up to a point where you can do things doesn't take that long.

People develop their entire careers and also it's not "talent" it's skill.

Not sure what kind of inefficient workplaces you've experienced though.

Agree with this, we started hiring in March for the cohort that will start training in September but we then had a hiring and recruitment freeze in May which only lifted in June so we are on the back foot for sure.

Yes, the entitlement must be frustrating. I guess many look at their student loan balance plus the current cost of living and want a salary that is unrealistic for an entry-level position!

I think they are applying to us and all the other decent payers op. We start at over 30.

you are typical of that crappy employer rationale “ well it’s more than min wage and was good enough for me”

you want the decent grads. Then pay a decent wage. The grads applying to you can’t do better and for some this will even be aspirational.

But do you actually work 35 hours a week? You switch your computer on at 9am and clock off at 5pm and take a full hour for lunch, every day?

I don't know many roles where that happens. It's expected that you do the "hours required for the role" and meet deadlines etc. And even if that's that you work 9-5 but only take 30 minutes for lunch normally, and then 1 week in 4 you work 8-5:30 and don't take a lunch break as you have a busy week/a deadline coming up, that's still an average of 40 hours a week. Take a few weeks off that where you do work your hours and add a few weeks on where you do 50+ hours because things are manic to make it realistic and it still evens out that way.

So comparing the technical hours you're employed for isn't super relevent often.

Exactly this.

They rotate around the agency for the first year to give them a grounding in lots of different things. Marketing is a big integrated industry where knowledge of other disciplines is really important, so that first year is vital for the development of their careers no matter where they settle.

It is massively inefficient for the business - that’s the point. It’s an investment in talent and skills. We are an agency, we literally sell our expertise and knowledge, that’s our ‘product’. The grad scheme is product development and therefore a cost not a revenue channel

On a serious note this is what worries me. The business won’t tolerate the cost of the scheme is wages go through the roof and they’ll pull it.

When I recruited grads over 20 years ago they started on £27k (City, not banking). They were brilliant and so keen.

Now I work in a completely different industry and there are people in their 40's on £23k! Funnily enough it's an industry that finds it very difficult to recruit as it's bloody hard work but local authority funded who get diddly squit from the government so pay their suppliers shit rates.

In what industry?