To pay our cleaner even when she doesn't come??

[FusionChefGeoff]

Am I being a mug??

We can afford it - £35 a clean is not nothing to us but it's money accounted for in a monthly budget which allows plenty of clubs / treats / holidays.

It started in covid where we'd just had a windfall (thank fuck as my business was decimated) and before the grants were in place so we kept paying.

And when she goes away / was ill / son had covid etc we kept paying.

I've just said to her she doesn't have to come tomorrow if she can't face it - and couldn't bring myself to say 'but I won't pay you'

AIBU??

Yes - you're being a mug. Set some boundaries
No - you're doing a good thing and you can afford it so don't worry

Yabu.

If she's messaged you to say she's ill and can't come then personally I would still pay her for tomorrow.

As you say, you've done it before and it's the nice thing to do. My friend's a cleaner and she wouldn't even take a day off for her dad's funeral because she couldn't afford the loss of money.

Keep paying if you actually employ her, but don't if she's self-employed.

If she's self-employed she will already be charging you a premium to cover things like holiday pay, sickness etc.

If you cancel you pay
if she cancels you don’t

Do you not have a contract with her that has agreed this in advance?

My cleaner will now send a friend/swap days but when I had a lone cleaner she had a clear contract that I paid her a retainer for holidays/Christmas etc.

How often does this happen?

This!

Tricky one - as it's not her suggesting she doesn't come tomorrow I think you should pay. You suggested canceling so that's on you.

If it's her cancelling I wouldn't pay. If she was canceling for something major & specific then I would (like the funeral mentioned above) but if she's canceling because she wants to go away for a few days then I wouldn't.

I pay my cleaner every week regardless. I pay her holiday, unwell, if I cancel etc.

I can afford it, and she’s very valuable to me and my family.

This.

Why would she not be able to 'face it' though? Is there some ongoing issue here?

I wouldn’t say you’re being a mug, it’s kind of you and if you’re happy with the arrangement then I don’t see the issue. But I would also happily understand someone not paying their cleaner if they don’t come in - she is not your employee, she’s self employed presumably so you’re paying her for a service and if that service can’t be delivered then you shouldn’t feel you have to pay.

Is she a good cleaner and how often do the absences happen?

I've had the same cleaner for five years, she gets paid if she's ill or on holiday and during covid.

She's an employee to me, why would I try and shaft a good employee?

I've just told mine not to come tomorrow and that I'll be paying her for the missed day. I value her

This. I think you are being a bit of a mug.

If you are giving her sick pay and paid holiday (which you effectively are), you are opening yourself up to the risk of being considered her employer for tax and pension purposes - in which case you should be paying NI, PAYE income tax (if she hits the threshold) and offering a pension, as well as giving her an employment contract etc.

Stop doing this. Pay her a fair hourly rate for when she turns up but do not pay her otherwise.

If she's ill we'll pay, same with family illness and emergencies. We're lucky to have her though and she never takes the piss.

Agree with this. It sounds like she's cancelled on you a lot? She may have figured out that you're a bit too generous for your own good and be taking you for a ride.

It is a more difficult to change things once the precedent has been set but maybe you should prepare her that you want a chat at some stage to lay out fair terms for cancellations?

My cleaner gets cash when she's here, so if she doesn't come she doesn't get it. But that's just our situation - you may have a more formal standing arrangement with your cleaner.

If you cancel you pay
If she cancels you don’t

This - unless of course you've got a contract which says otherwise

However I suspect the problem you'll have is that you've set a precedent whereby she expects paying no matter what, also known as being a mug.
Personally I'd want to change that, but probably the only way you'll sort this is to start again with another cleaner, only do it more professionally next time

I'm a cleaner and I've never been paid for not turning up! 😂 Most of my clients are elderly or vulnerable though so I guess it's different if the client is wealthy.

That. My cleaner is really flakey. But I keep her on because she's nice and I trust her. And I don't actually need a once a week clean, so get three weeks out of five is fine by me. I paid her half during lockdown because otherwise I'd have spent more on her not cleaning than if she cleaned. But yes, when she cancels, I don't pay her.

However, you're the one who's suggested your cleaner doesn't come tomorrow, so you pay.

Surely they'd need a contract abs payslips to be classed as employed?

So are you complying with all the requirements for an employer? Employment contract? PAYE and NI payments? Offering a pension? Privacy notice? Minimum annual leave including bank holiday allowance? Redundancy if you no longer require her? Health and safety workplace assessment? Are you insured, if she injures herself? What if she takes you to an employment tribunal?

You are opening yourself up to a huge amount of hassle and risk, if you treat someone as an employee without doing it properly.

as there's now a history, she will probably expect it. and given that it was at your suggestion, seems unfair not to.

In your position, it it comes up again, I'd phrase it as "it's fine if you'd prefer to come in later in the week when it's cooled down a bit"

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow nope! She's self employed, she's no contract or payslips.

I'm really not concerned that HMRC are going to come knocking on my door!

I treat her like an employee to retain her provision of services.