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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To pay our cleaner even when she doesn't come??

79 replies

FusionChefGeoff · 17/07/2022 10:14

Am I being a mug??

We can afford it - £35 a clean is not nothing to us but it's money accounted for in a monthly budget which allows plenty of clubs / treats / holidays.

It started in covid where we'd just had a windfall (thank fuck as my business was decimated) and before the grants were in place so we kept paying.

And when she goes away / was ill / son had covid etc we kept paying.

I've just said to her she doesn't have to come tomorrow if she can't face it - and couldn't bring myself to say 'but I won't pay you'

AIBU??

Yes - you're being a mug. Set some boundaries
No - you're doing a good thing and you can afford it so don't worry

OP posts:
11Hawkins · 17/07/2022 10:34

Why be would you pay her if she's cancelling? Confused I'd pay if she rearranged the date but to cancel YABU.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 17/07/2022 10:35

heattreat · 17/07/2022 10:32

GrinGrinGrin

Surely they'd need a contract abs payslips to be classed as employed?

Show quote history

No, the employee relationship is created if you are deemed to be treating the person as an employee. The fact that you have not offered her proper rights as an employee can then get you into serious trouble.

I don't know why you think it's funny?

Blizzardbeach · 17/07/2022 10:36

Going from personal experience, no I wouldn't be paying if she couldn't make it for one reason or another.
I had a cleaner who would decide she was bringing her

Julen7 · 17/07/2022 10:37

I don’t pay mine unless she comes - she has been away more than here so far this year so I just couldn’t do it

heattreat · 17/07/2022 10:37

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow I think you're derailing the thread with your hyperbole!

I couldn't give any less of a fuck about treating her as an employee is going to cause me hassle ! It's not in the last five years, she's great, super reliable, does everything and more than I ask for.

She tells me I'm one of the only clients she has that respect her.

Thank you for your warning, I'll ignore it and carry on just as we are!

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 17/07/2022 10:38

heattreat · 17/07/2022 10:34

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow nope! She's self employed, she's no contract or payslips.

I'm really not concerned that HMRC are going to come knocking on my door!

GrinGrin

I treat her like an employee to retain her provision of services.

Well you're an idiot, then.

A contract is not the piece of paper. A contract is the agreement between two individuals (anything in writing just documents it). By treating a cleaner as an employee, you are likely to be deemed to be her employer. And it's not just HMRC who are the risk here - an employee has a whole raft of rights, that a self-employed contractor does not.

Blizzardbeach · 17/07/2022 10:38

*daughter who she knew didn't get on with my dog, then would say, oh I can't come because DD is scared and would keep the money I'd paid in advance.
She ended up cancelling a lot and I'd always pay her.

Now it's, I cancel I pay.
You cancel, I don't pay.

Annfr · 17/07/2022 10:45

Normally I'd say pay if you cancel...

But Monday/Tuesday is a pretty unusual circumstance and I'd feel better paying them to either not come or come a different day.

Veetavix · 17/07/2022 10:50

I look after my cleaner, and they look after me. We had our last one for ten years, including Covid, a long period of absence when she had an operation and times when she has gone back home. I paid throughout and enjoyed the services of a kind, reliable employee and a clean home for years and years.

I do the same with my new one. She is phenomenal and I want her to be happy to work for us.

If I felt that they were taking advantage then I might be more transactional about things, but they don’t take advantage.

EV117 · 17/07/2022 10:52

She's an employee to me, why would I try and shaft a good employee?

But not all cleaners are ‘employees’ - they are self employed. I have a dog Walker, window cleaner. Childminder. They all provide a service, but I am not their employer - I’m there customer. I think with most cleaners it’s the same.
As a pp said, if someone is your employee that comes with a lot of responsibility. It’s not about being charitable - there are laws that need to be complied with. OP is basically being charitable, which is nice, but she is certainly not obliged to pay for sick leave and not paying would not be ‘shafting’.

EV117 · 17/07/2022 10:56

No, the employee relationship is created if you are deemed to be treating the person as an employee. The fact that you have not offered her proper rights as an employee can then get you into serious trouble.

I thought this too - isn’t this similar to what happened with Uber drivers?

Luredbyapomegranate · 17/07/2022 10:57

ThinWomansBrain · 17/07/2022 10:33

as there's now a history, she will probably expect it. and given that it was at your suggestion, seems unfair not to.

In your position, it it comes up again, I'd phrase it as "it's fine if you'd prefer to come in later in the week when it's cooled down a bit"

Yes this.

I do pay my cleaner when she's ill and did in lockdown etc - but I think a delay is more appropriate than don't come - just follow up w this in a text.

heattreat · 17/07/2022 10:58

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow don't call me an idiot! It reflects very badly on you.

You sound like a five year old that's lost an argument!

I think o know someone who has been cleaning for me for five years just a teeny bit better than you do.

missdemeanors · 17/07/2022 10:59

@FusionChefGeoff surely it depends on the agreement you have? You mightn't have a written contract but presumably you discussed what happens about missed days when she started working?

Throwawaytoday · 17/07/2022 11:00

@heattreat just so you know @MissLucyEyelesbarrow is entirely right.

If you treat someone as an employee (something as simple as holiday pay, or (in an office job) inviting them to the office party). Then in the eyes of the law you are also liable for PAYE, Employers NI, providing a pension, etc.

Of course it'll likely come to nought, but that is the law.

heattreat · 17/07/2022 11:00

Veetavix · 17/07/2022 10:50

I look after my cleaner, and they look after me. We had our last one for ten years, including Covid, a long period of absence when she had an operation and times when she has gone back home. I paid throughout and enjoyed the services of a kind, reliable employee and a clean home for years and years.

I do the same with my new one. She is phenomenal and I want her to be happy to work for us.

If I felt that they were taking advantage then I might be more transactional about things, but they don’t take advantage.

Exactly this!

TheDepthsOfDespair · 17/07/2022 11:00

I pay my dads cleaner if we cancel…. Eg my dad has been in hospital for weeks and I’ve chosen to pay her as a “retainer”. She tried to say no but I insisted.
I don’t think she’s ever cancelled on us.

just cash in hand, no contract.

whiteroseredrose · 17/07/2022 11:00

YANBU. When we had a dog walker we paid when she couldn't come through no fault of her own, Covid, illness, our holidays, even hers because they were so infrequent.

I wanted her to stay a dog walker and not decide to do something else!!

If Ddog was alive I would have told her not to come but still paid.

coffeecupsandfairylights · 17/07/2022 11:02

I'm a dog walker and I hugely appreciate the clients who still pay me when I have to cancel due to illness and extreme heat.

Obviously it's up to you and you're under no obligation to pay her, but I go above and beyond for the clients who take extra steps to show how much they appreciate me!

LoisPlane · 17/07/2022 11:02

I couldn't give any less of a fuck about treating her as an employee is going to cause me hassle ! It's not in the last five years, she's great, super reliable, does everything and more than I ask for

You're very naiive. What the person posted about the risks of treating someone as an employee but not paying them paye/pension etc is accurate and in no way hyperbole.

If your 'employed but not employed' cleaner ever catches on and approaches HMRC with evidence that her arrangement with you is aligned with employment and not self employed, they can issue you a fine plus a back invoice for the tax, NI and pension contributions you've missed for x years.

It's not even unlikely or high evidence threshold needed - a quick Google will tell you the rules. After you've put yourself in this position for a number of years, the only thing stopping a shower of shit coming your way is your cleaners goodwill.

MolkosTeenageAngst · 17/07/2022 11:05

If you cancel then you should pay but if she’s cancelling then you shouldn’t need to.

If she’s ill and you can afford it then I suppose she probably isn’t getting sick pay so paying her is a kindness if it’s only happening occasionally. But paying when her son is ill etc is definitely not necessary, at my workplace where sick pay is fairly generous dependents leave is unpaid and that has been the case everywhere I’ve worked, I’ve never been somewhere people can have a day off to look after a child and still get paid. You are definitely being taken for a mug there and no doubt if she knows she’s getting paid either way she has no motive to try and find alternative childcare arrangements.

heattreat · 17/07/2022 11:05

Throwawaytoday · 17/07/2022 11:00

@heattreat just so you know @MissLucyEyelesbarrow is entirely right.

If you treat someone as an employee (something as simple as holiday pay, or (in an office job) inviting them to the office party). Then in the eyes of the law you are also liable for PAYE, Employers NI, providing a pension, etc.

Of course it'll likely come to nought, but that is the law.

I'm not the slightest bit concerned! I'm able to risk assess myself, I don't need the condescending @MissLucyEyelesbarrow to lecture me or call me and idiot!

Anyway I hear prisons are quite pleasant places nowadays?

You know gym equipment and all that, I won't need a cleaner in there, will I?

peaceanddove · 17/07/2022 11:06

It's very rare I have to cancel our cleaner, but when I do I always still pay her. She's very reliable so rarely cancels on me either, but if she does she tries her very best to come on a different day etc. She gets a generous Christmas bonus and a pressie on her birthday. She really is worth her weight in gold to us and deserves to be treated well.

In the past, we've had cleaners who were flakey and took the piss. I think you always know, deep down, if you've got a keeper or not.

heattreat · 17/07/2022 11:06

LoisPlane · 17/07/2022 11:02

I couldn't give any less of a fuck about treating her as an employee is going to cause me hassle ! It's not in the last five years, she's great, super reliable, does everything and more than I ask for

You're very naiive. What the person posted about the risks of treating someone as an employee but not paying them paye/pension etc is accurate and in no way hyperbole.

If your 'employed but not employed' cleaner ever catches on and approaches HMRC with evidence that her arrangement with you is aligned with employment and not self employed, they can issue you a fine plus a back invoice for the tax, NI and pension contributions you've missed for x years.

It's not even unlikely or high evidence threshold needed - a quick Google will tell you the rules. After you've put yourself in this position for a number of years, the only thing stopping a shower of shit coming your way is your cleaners goodwill.

Yep, I think o know my cleaner a bit better than you do?

So again I'm not concerned!

ClemmyTine · 17/07/2022 11:07

I am a cleaner, I don't get paid or expect to if I don't work. If they are away I still clean, they have never cancelled me. If they did, I wouldn't expect payment.

If I were you I would pay her this time but when she is next there tell her that going forward you won't be paying her if she cancels.