To pay our cleaner even when she doesn't come??

[FusionChefGeoff]

Am I being a mug??

We can afford it - £35 a clean is not nothing to us but it's money accounted for in a monthly budget which allows plenty of clubs / treats / holidays.

It started in covid where we'd just had a windfall (thank fuck as my business was decimated) and before the grants were in place so we kept paying.

And when she goes away / was ill / son had covid etc we kept paying.

I've just said to her she doesn't have to come tomorrow if she can't face it - and couldn't bring myself to say 'but I won't pay you'

AIBU??

Yes - you're being a mug. Set some boundaries
No - you're doing a good thing and you can afford it so don't worry

She’s self employed, self employed people don’t get paid when they don’t work. That’s why, in minimum wage work, they charge more than minimum wage.

You’d be a mug to pay her for doing nothing.

I agree it's tricky - she almost never cancels on us (legal isolation due to covid aside) - and gives us good notice of infrequent holidays.

I worry that as PP have described, she would come regardless as she can't afford not to.

She's also come sometimes when she's really not been well but is soldiering on.

But I hate the idea of forcing someone to do physical work cleaning MY house in 39 degree heat just because I can afford it and she can't.

Which is why I offered for her not to come.

But we've never really spoken about it so she it's just the precedent.

I think I'm happy to continue as we are paying if we cancel, and also if she / son is sick, but may try to step back from paying for holidays next time she mentions one.

I've asked mine if she wants to move the date to later in the week or cancel. She normally does a Tuesday.

She said she would see how bad Monday is and then decide.

I will pay her either way because she is amazing and worth it.

I think you’re very kind, but there’s really no need to cancel her for the heatwave if that’s your reason. She could still come, and you could agree together that she does some jobs that are not too exhausting in the heat, eg dusting but not hoovering etc, and make sure she keeps hydrated.
it’s surely a matter of being sensible rather than the entire country coming to a standstill.

But equally if it's not essential and OP is happy to pay her, why is it a problem?

Hi @Jacopo we paid our cleaner throughout covid even though she didn't come.

In these exceptional circumstances I'd pay her to stay away. Travel is advised against and if you can afford it it's the right thing to do.

Cleaners are generally not rolling in dosh snd im sure she'd be grateful.

A good loyal cleaner is a treasure and worth their weight in gold. Little extra Thankyou s like this go a long way to show your appreciation

Obviously it's up to you and you're under no obligation to pay her, but I go above and beyond for the clients who take extra steps to show how much they appreciate me!

I’m not sure how fair that is though - my dog walker has only cancelled on the odd occasion but when she does she’s either asked another dog walker who she knows and sometimes walks with her to come and take over. Once I suggested to just do a longer walk the next day to make up for it if possible, which she was happy with - otherwise she just wouldn’t invoice me. My childminder also does the same, she’ll do her utmost to arrange with another childminder friend to have DS, I think it’s only not worked out once. I think simply taking money for nothing without question is no good really in these situations, although in exceptional circumstances it can’t be helped. I think if you are self employed and provide a service and don’t want to lose out on money then efforts should at least be made to make up for lost time.
I pay for a window cleaner to come every six weeks - if he was ill he wouldn’t just miss my windows out and take payment, he would fit me in another time.

we really value our cleaner, the house is a
tip when she can’t come no matter how hard we try. So I pay her every week yes. But in return she recognises that we value her and she appreciates that and occasionally does extra things without me asking (like ironing 1-2 shirts).

if you can afford it, pay her.

Agree with @PuckeredArseFace.
I did not pay my cleaner thru covid. It was her side job and I know she wasn't declaring it, but o did offer to pay her half but she said she was on furlough from her regular job so was ok. But I did up her fee from £10 to £12.50/ hour afterwards. A friend did keep paying her and has not increased her wages.

Can I be your cleaner 😂

We paid ours through Covid when they were closed. First week back they stayed for 2 hours and 10 minutes. Second week back they stayed for 2 hours and 5 minutes. (We pay for 3 hours.) They had done a reasonable job but the place wasn’t immaculate. I emailed a complaint to the manager (it is a family run business with about 4 of them who are all related I think) and she then said that she would get them to stay the full time but perhaps the house only needed 2.5 hours. Which surprised me as they had happily charged me for 3 hours for the 3 years that they worked for us pre Covid when we weren’t in the house during the day.

I haven’t got rid of them but I don’t pay for anything other than the hours that they do now.

It's arrogant and patronising to treat a cleaner as an employee @heattreat . They're self employed. They're their own boss. So treat them with the respect they deserve and pay them for the service they provide.
You seem to want to be your cleaner's boss. She's not your servant, she's a service provider.

If she can’t make it ask her to come in on a different day or do double the following week to make up the hours. On double days she could do the jobs that don’t always get done - oven cleaning, curtain washing, deep cleaning etc.

Sounds sensible OP. Might be helpful to offer her chance to reschedule for holidays and get an extra clean before or after if that is an easier conversation.

Are you the only person in the country who doesn't know how hot it's going to be tomorrow?

Do you think people who live in countries where it’s this hot or hotter for the entire summer season every year just go weeks or months without working, cleaning and just generally getting on with their normal lives? It might be a bit uncomfortable having to work in near 40 degree heat but there are plenty of countries where this is the norm and people are able to crack on with it because they have to. It’s reasonable to ask if there are ongoing issues such as a chronic illness because a fit and healthy person should be able to work indoors in the heat (where it won’t reach the peak temperatures as outdoors in the sun) even if it’s a bit uncomfortable.

Yours kidding right?

Did you miss the post where she said I'm the only one who treats her with respect?

Only a MN mad person could she paying her gir holiday and suck pay is a negative?

She could of course always stop working for me or refuse the money but she's not bay shit crazy so doesn't do either.

www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

Generally

1. they are better acclimatised
2. the infrastructure supports travel etc in the heat
3. lots of interiors that would require cleaning eg domestic homes, offices, shops, hotels have air con

How can you think it’s comparable to an unprecedentedly hot day in the U.K.

I have had the same great cleaner for 8 years. I paid her through Covid lockdown, I paid her not to come when we had Covid, I pay her on the incredibly rare occasions she is ill.
She is self employed through an agency owned by a friend of mine so somewhat convolutedly she just still puts a timesheet in for my hours meaning I’m at no risk of gaining any employer responsibilities. For my team at work who earn many times what my cleaner does I am always flexible because I know they are generally conscientious. Would be sad if I couldn’t extend the same consideration to my cleaner. I took time off with Covid secure in the knowledge that I’d be paid - would hate for someone on a lower wage and much more impacted by the cost of living crisis to be denied that.

Anyone paying employee benefits for their self-employed cleaner's hours when they are sick or on holiday, should be prepared to face a request (by them) to also offer all of the other benefits of employment.

It's the situation, not the individual, that puts you at risk. You are obviously not going to listen to advice but, for the OP and any lurkers..

There are 3 problems with treating a self-employed contractor as an employee: tax law thresholds, employment law thresholds, and insurance. Tax law thresholds are the lower risk for most part-time cleaners, as they are less likely to hit the threshold for being considered an employee by HMRC - though note that this is not a non-existent risk, especially if they only clean for you.

Employment law is the greater risk. The thresholds for an individual 'accidentally' becoming an employee are very low, and getting ever lower. Whether you have issued the individual with an employment contract or payslips is irrelevant (except in the sense that you will get into more trouble if you haven't, and they are then deemed an employee). If you treat them like an employee, they will be an employee in most cases. You may have a great relationship with the individual, but people are only human. Imagine that your cleaner has a serious accident. She may be at risk of losing her home due to loss of income. Are you sure that she would not expect sick pay, if you have always paid it before? You are actually worse off than a normal employer in that scenario because you don't have a written contract to specify what the sick pay should be. Some people may be fine with paying someone who is unable to work for 6 or 12 months, but not everyone can afford that. And, of course, if she successfully argues that she is an employee, she will then expect the employer's NI and pension contributions that you should have been paying. If she has been with you for a few years, you could find yourself with a bill for well over £10,000.

Probably the most serious risk is insurance. Are you insured to have an employee working in your house? If not, and she has an accident, you could find yourself with a bill for tens of thousands - possibly more if there is a permanent injury.

Couldn't you suggest she does Thursday instead?

As has been explained a million times on these threads, life in hot countries is set up very differently to account for the heat.

-Buildings are built to remain as cool as possible - wooden shutters on the outside, stone floors, air conditioning as standard, etc.
-Schools start at 7am and are finished by 11.30am in summer so students are home during the hottest part of the day. Schools also break up much earlier than we do so children are on holiday when it's really hot.
-Many businesses close at lunchtime for several hours "siesta" - restaurants, shops, cafês etc. all shut in hot countries, and offices, shopping malls etc. will have air conditioning in them.

So, a cleaner wouldn't be expected to work in a home that's 30+ degrees indoors, no. The day would be set up so the cleaner worked very early in the day, or later in the day when it cooled down, and the home itself would be set up to be as cool as possible.

Presumably she'll have other clients booked in on Thursday, though.

I'm a dog walker and have cancelled tomorrow and Tuesday, but so many people have said "can't you take them Friday instead" - well, no, lol. There are only so many hours in a day and my Fridays are already fully booked!