To not want to raise a child into this vicious, dog-eat-dog, cut-throat country?

[summergal250]

Really I'm pretty close to giving up on the idea of one day having kids.

Why?

Unless you're rich, everything in the country is just an endless, ceaseless, dog-eat-dog fight over scraps. Day after day, month after month, year after year. I don't want my child to have to deal with this crap.

Examples:
. I'm currently having issues with the landlord over various repairs he's dragging his feet on. His attitude is, if you don't like it move. I pay £700 for this crappy shoebox. I could just move - again - or threaten court action, which as empty as any money I'd get from that would be wiped out by legal fees.

. This is like my 10th rental in 12 years. EVERY single one them had at least one serious issue with it - mice, damp, noise issues, no washing machine, landlords entering property etc. Out all of them only one landlord was actually a decent person - all the rest having been lying, cheating, two-faced money-grubbers. Of course, not a problem if mummy and daddy can give you a deposit. In my 30s yet feel as I'm trapped in a permanent state of being 21.

. I work full time and do freelance in my spare time. I constantly look for new, better paying roles and I have been saving for a deposit for years and as house prices just rise and rise it feels I'm getting nowhere. I'm almost at the point of saying, why bother? How is it fair to raise a kid in some crummy tiny flat? The housing issue has been a problem for 20 years and NOTHING has been done - every year it just gets worse and worse. Meanwhile smug boomers who bought their semi for £80K in 1979 bang on about avocados.

. I got conned into doing a degree which every adult in my teens said would be a ticket to a great future. Instead, all it represents is a massive pile of debt and a waste of three years. Yet, even a receptionist job now insists on a degree, so you have to do it, even though only a degree from Oxbridge or a top redbrick is worth anything these days.

. Jobs - graduated into the recession. I've had jobs where I've been bullied, others with psycho bosses, others with vicious backstabbing 'colleagues'. Constantly the implicit threat of - if you don't like it we'll fire you. Felt I was finally getting somewhere in my old job and then was made redundant during covid. Cue several months of soul-destroying unemployment. The job I have now is ok but less well paid then my old one - so, more struggle, more jostling for favour, wasting more of my free time looking for a better paid jobs, more endless rounds of interviews. I feel like I've been going up the down escalator the entire time. Every year it seems the jobs market gets fiercer, more competitive, more brutal and cut-throat.

. The low pay means I spend large chunks of my free time freelancing. I enjoy it but it can be exhausting. Atm I'm embroiled in a dispute with a client who is refusing to pay for some completed work (with £700) - turns out he's con man with a dodgy past. I'm having to take him to a small claims court - yet more of my time and energy wasted.

. Similar to an occasion a few months back where a hotel Cornwall was nothing like the pics when I got there - it was in a disgusting state. I cancelled and went elsewhere, and then was embroiled in a 3 month battle to get my money back, with the owner only relenting when I got the local council involved.

Spotting a pattern?

If you're not rich in this country everything's just a pointless, exhausting fight to keep your head above water. Every economic interaction is just a vicious bare-knuckle fight, with people out to shaft you for what they can. Honestly, if it wasn't for my family and friends I really would have just given up on the human race.

I won't go into the this country's general lack of manners, the yobbish behaviour of many people here, the rows of homeless tents in out high streets, the crappy education system, the utterly broken and corrupt political system, and the general utter madness society seems to fall further into with every passing year. The quality of life here just deteriorates every year.

So, basically, I don't want to inflict this on a child. My life is worse than my parents - fact. I'm doubt I'll ever reach their level. If you're not rich, children have no future in this country - just an endless treadmill of debt and exploitation. And every trend I've discussed above is getting worse - I just dread to think how things will be when they grew up.

And before people start saying, 'maybe it's you' - believe you me, I've fought coming to these conclusions tooth and nail. Grew up in a firm Old Labour home - solidarity and all that. I used to be the classic caring, sharing, naive people-pleaser - after years of being taken advantage of and shafted I've bit by bit given up. Now all I care about is myself, my family and my immediate friends.

Where are you getting this from? I’ve retained my right to live and work in the Audi and my husband was granted the right to work in the EU. I know a lot of people who move in either direction and none has had any issue with it.

Yes, you can retain right to live and work in the EU but not if you don't already have it. So it is currently much harder to emigrate to the EU from the UK if you don't already have permission to work there.

I must be lucky where I live in Scotland. There's a lovely feeling of space, wildness, greenness, light. Outside of the cities, I rarely need to pay for parking. With a bit of nouse I can usually visit the cities and not pay for parking there either. I usually go to very beautiful places and meet almost no-one. We have plenty of choices for wonderful wild swimming in rivers and lakes, where you again meet no-one. Public transport is quite good where we are. The roads are mostly okay. Little traffic. Local facilities are pretty good.
That's not to deny what you've said - as I say I assume we're lucky where we live.
And there are certainly a lot of problems with the way Scotland is governed.
Comparing it with Switzerland though - one of the richest countries on earth (per citizen). Where they have plenty of workers from southern Europe to do the jobs the Swiss don't want to do [a bit like the Uk before Brexit]. It's a very old world kind of place where people have not yet lost trust in each other. I know someone in Switzerland who retired recently from a very ordinary job. The company gave her a leaving present worth £12K. That was the standard present.

What do you actually mean by this? By saying that people just need different paperwork? Before Brexit British citizens didn't need any particular paperwork to work in the EU. They could apply for any job. Now most jobs will not even consider a British citizen. They can only offer the job to a non-EU citizen if they can't find anyone in the EU to do the job. And then there's lots of paperwork. Why are you being disingenuous about this? Do you really think that a British hairdresser or teaching assistant or even English teacher can pop across to France and get a job there? Perhaps you're in a hugely in demand job in IT or whatever and can get a job wherever you want. You are in a small minority.

Wow some of the posts on here. Sympathies OP. Remember the likelihood of the majority of posters on here not being of the same generation and having the same experience is high.

Now all I care about is myself, my family and my immediate friends

Sometimes helping others brings out a better version of yourself, and teaches you to appreciate what you have and what many others do not. It would help shift the pessimism.

.

That’s true, very few older adults would blame everyone but themselves for how they are doing, that’s very definitely a trait that’s much more common in the young.

Oh yeah no older people ever went on and on for years about 'millenials' being the cause of all evils

No, I don’t think they did.

I’ve heard a few people say how entitled they are. They were likely thinking of people like the OP, who seem to bring little to the party but expect a nice house and a good job.

Sympathy being rationed, is it?

Well, I "brought plenty to the party", am relatively wealthy, excellent job, scrimped and saved adequately, and I still agree with the OP and am planning to leave the UK.

If I hadn't lived in other European countries, I might not notice many of the things wrong with the UK.

What I don't get is why public services are so awful but tax is hardly cheap.

So don't have children then!
I may have agreed with you until you blamed boomers. I don't know where you live, but the people of that generation in my part of the country are mostly working class and nothing like you describe. Most of them went straight from school into the factories or pits

Totally missing the point but you've just reminded me of the person who thought the phrase was "doggy dog". As in "It's a doggy dog world" 😂😂😂😂😂

Couple of things, yes life is tough. This is why you respect elders.

I think you are in a vicious cycle and you need to put some effort into breaking it. Your degree didn’t work out in terms of enabling you to achieve a career which will pay for the lifestyle that you want. Fine, so change that. I did an economics degree and went back to school to take the necessary accounting exams to be able to sit my CPA exams (accounting). I plugged away for 10 years and today I’m well paid. I also ran a business with my husband which was extremely profitable. We have now sold that business. From the outside it looks great but I am up at 4am, start work at 7am, never take lunch, finish at 5:30pm and rush home (10min commute!) to do the evening with the children. They go down at 8pm and I crack on and do stuff.

I am always doing something in terms of reading books, trying a new sport, fitness classes, planning day trips etc. and it’s surprising what is available for free or low cost when you do your research.

Please don’t get hung up on where you are now. Focus on making small changes like visiting a free museum or the library and consider new ways of going about your business regarding work. I’m also a believer in making sure you eat properly, exercise and sleep well. You sleep better when you eat well, exercise and have a positive state of mind.

I am probably much older, financially comfortable, did all the ‘right’ things and I still agree with the OP. The odds are really stacked against the current generation of younger people. There’s a lot of wilful ignorance on display on this thread. I own my home outright but still have empathy for long term renters.

Like a previous poster, if I hadn't worked in other European countries and still have family living in them to visit, I might not have noticed many of the things wrong with the UK.

Those of you saying that the OP should be grateful because at least the UK is not like <insert random developing country>. The UK is getting poorer, inequality is massive, especially between the generations. Why rather than bashing the OP can’t demand better, especially from our politicians.

Couple of things, yes life is tough. This is why you respect elders.

No. Elders have responsibilities to the generations below them and still need to earn respect. Respect doesn’t come automatically as a right as we age.

Hmmm.... posters have listed all of 5 Northern European countries that offer a better life than the UK, and as OP hasn't posted further, nobody has any idea if she has the skills needed to move there.

As for PP who asked if she should have chosen a better degree or move away from her family to make a better living, yes! That's what millions of people even in richer countries like Singapore and Japan do, not just those in war torn countries. Most people across the world choose
high earning degrees
move away from their families
live in shared households
Live in apartments, not go on about wanting a house with a garden

I did all the above.

Why should British people be exempt from all this?

if you're not rich in this country everything's just a pointless, exhausting fight to keep your head above water. Every economic interaction is just a vicious bare-knuckle fight, with people out to shaft you for what they can. Honestly, if it wasn't for my family and friends I really would have just given up on the human race.

I completely agree, and I made the decision not to have children.

I'm really talking about areas where a small 2 bed is the same price as a flat, like the area of West Yorkshire I lived in and where I am now in a market town in the SW. When we moved down here, we bought a freehold 2 bed even though there were bigger and nicer 2 bed flats for the same money, because the service charge was more than our council tax and power bill put together and we just didn't have it. It's not just about people thinking they're above flats and need a garden.

JaniceMoplin Hmmm.... posters have listed all of 5 Northern European countries that offer a better life than the UK, and as OP hasn't posted further, nobody has any idea if she has the skills needed to move there.

Erm, you do realise thats not the topic of the OP? To list countries in Europe that offer a better life than the UK?

Anyway, heres a more complete risk, although I'm not pretending its definitive: The Netherlands, Switzerland, Norway, Luxembourg, France, Belgium, Germany, Denmark. All countries which are geographically close to the UK and which the UK might be expected to be matching in most ways. It might be that countries such as Slovenia, Poland, Czechia and Slovakia and some others actually offer a better life in many respects, despite some issues. I remember being on a cycling holiday in Hungary once and one of our group exclaiming that he had worked hard all his life just to enjoy a lower standard of living than a rural Hungarian.

As for PP who asked if she should have chosen a better degree or move away from her family to make a better living, yes! That's what millions of people even in richer countries like Singapore and Japan do, not just those in war torn countries. Most people across the world choose
high earning degrees
move away from their families
live in shared households
Live in apartments, not go on about wanting a house with a garden

This is a good point. I've never had much sympathy for all the British people who complain that they can't get a good job/buy/rent a house where they live. Surely if thats the case, you move somewhere else to get a better job and earn more money, thus enabling you to buy or rent somewhere and improve your quality of living. At what point of history in any country has it been possible to reliably remain exactly where you were born and walk into a good job and affordable housing? Its very strange, along with the obsession with avoiding living in apartments or house sharing when younger. It doesn't require a degree either, but expecting to remain exactly where your parents grew up isn't a great idea in any country.

Considering that many, if not most people, in many parts of the UK will have had ancestors who moved to where they live now due to the industrial revolution requiring cheap labour to flood in from all parts of the Commonwealth, it seems ridiculous that in 2022, people cannot move for work. There seems to be an expectation that the State will provide everything. Or perhaps due to the industrial revolution, the UK is left with a population which is unusually unmotivated in certain geographical areas because it created such a schism in society.

Thinking even of my grandparents, all of them moved for work from different parts of the country or another country, often several times. My parents were more static. I've moved around for university/work and so has my DH. It seems really strange to expect not to.

However, I would have to say that in the last 10 years, salaries haven't kept place with inflation, with employers using austerity as an excuse not to give pay rises, theres probably not much point in moving home to progress your salary any more, unless you are in a very specific kind of career. I'm a solicitor and I remember moving 150 away to work for a local authority for 27k 15 years ago, which I thought fairly low then but as NQ, something you do to get a foot on the ladder. That same job was recently advertised at 32k. The recommended minimum (often paid by firms) in Scotland for a trainee solicitor is only 19.5k in the first year and £22,500 in the second year, but now with considerable university debts to pay off.

And then its very difficult to get to work in the UK. Roads are poor, trains are expensive, buses are slow and uncomfortable. You need to be a particularly motivated person to re-locate, find a property to rent and travel to work each day in the expensive UK just to earn 32k per year for a highly skilled, qualified job.

Improving the infrastructure and making travel to work expenses entirely tax deductible as in Switzerland and The Netherlands (the lack of knowledge about this in the UK is shocking) would drastically improve the lives of many, but the British Government won't do it because now in the UK, people who work for a living are seen as "rich" and they would lose too many votes from people on benefits.

But those places aren't areas where people are struggling to buy houses and in many of those areas, the population has actually been decreasing. If they are struggling to buy a 100k house, it's an earnings problem, not that housing is too expensive.

It's not about housing supply in those areas which was my initial point about flats. Flats in any country are generally built in areas where there isn't enough land like in cities.

Many of the flats in my area actually don't have a service charge as they are converted from houses. This is less common in Yorkshire probably because of the cost of converting a house is too expensive if the flats can't be sold at 500k each. My DH dislikes those flats as the layout can be quite bad but most people seem to prefer them. You pay when there are works needed to be done so it's quite similar to a house but it does mean you have to save up and prepare for those times.

Again, this is something the government really needs to intervene in but it won't, because there are too many fingers in the pie in factoring/management companies. Sometimes government interference makes this worse but again the general British public seems to know little about the issue.

In Scotland, the situation is now worse with management companies because legislation was introduced which makes registration and training compulsory. Therefore, all of the small players who ran it as a loss leader at minimal cost, such as solicitors' firms, dropped out of the market. Because it is too expensive and difficult to keep training staff for a job they do only intermittently at little profit and then leave. So the market in Scotland is now increasingly dominated by large players who are taking over other firms and developing a monopoly. There are loads of complaints about these larger companies, and in any other country, the lack of competition on the market would be tackled, but in the UK, it seems to be actively encouraged.

Again in Scotland there is a tendency to take control out of peoples' own hands and to regulate, often making the situation worse by removing competition on the market. There is too much state interference in areas which don't require so much state interference and too little in areas which do require it. But too many British people don't want to do anything for themselves and complain when they have to eg organise a house repair. The concept of a hausmeister acting for little personal gain and organising payments is unknown here, as is looking after your own long term rental property and maybe supplying your own kitchen, as is standard in Germany, where longer term affordable family rentals are a thing. Again, it wouldn't work here because the law requires landlords to baby tenants and cater to their every whim, and that costs money.

Don't then. But the currently fashionable idea that Britain is the shittiest place in Shittonia is the sign of a narrow mind and narrower experiences

I have lived in Germany,.the leases are for a lifetime which is why people have the confidence to put in new kitchen and new light fixtures.

And as for 'rows of homeless tents in the high streets:, don't be fucking ridiculous.

as is looking after your own long term rental property and maybe supplying your own kitchen, as is standard in Germany, where longer term affordable family rentals are a thing. Again, it wouldn't work here because the law requires landlords to baby tenants and cater to their every whim, and that costs money.

lol, it's certainly to do with the lack of security here if you are comparing to Germany.