To not want to raise a child into this vicious, dog-eat-dog, cut-throat country?

[summergal250]

Really I'm pretty close to giving up on the idea of one day having kids.

Why?

Unless you're rich, everything in the country is just an endless, ceaseless, dog-eat-dog fight over scraps. Day after day, month after month, year after year. I don't want my child to have to deal with this crap.

Examples:
. I'm currently having issues with the landlord over various repairs he's dragging his feet on. His attitude is, if you don't like it move. I pay £700 for this crappy shoebox. I could just move - again - or threaten court action, which as empty as any money I'd get from that would be wiped out by legal fees.

. This is like my 10th rental in 12 years. EVERY single one them had at least one serious issue with it - mice, damp, noise issues, no washing machine, landlords entering property etc. Out all of them only one landlord was actually a decent person - all the rest having been lying, cheating, two-faced money-grubbers. Of course, not a problem if mummy and daddy can give you a deposit. In my 30s yet feel as I'm trapped in a permanent state of being 21.

. I work full time and do freelance in my spare time. I constantly look for new, better paying roles and I have been saving for a deposit for years and as house prices just rise and rise it feels I'm getting nowhere. I'm almost at the point of saying, why bother? How is it fair to raise a kid in some crummy tiny flat? The housing issue has been a problem for 20 years and NOTHING has been done - every year it just gets worse and worse. Meanwhile smug boomers who bought their semi for £80K in 1979 bang on about avocados.

. I got conned into doing a degree which every adult in my teens said would be a ticket to a great future. Instead, all it represents is a massive pile of debt and a waste of three years. Yet, even a receptionist job now insists on a degree, so you have to do it, even though only a degree from Oxbridge or a top redbrick is worth anything these days.

. Jobs - graduated into the recession. I've had jobs where I've been bullied, others with psycho bosses, others with vicious backstabbing 'colleagues'. Constantly the implicit threat of - if you don't like it we'll fire you. Felt I was finally getting somewhere in my old job and then was made redundant during covid. Cue several months of soul-destroying unemployment. The job I have now is ok but less well paid then my old one - so, more struggle, more jostling for favour, wasting more of my free time looking for a better paid jobs, more endless rounds of interviews. I feel like I've been going up the down escalator the entire time. Every year it seems the jobs market gets fiercer, more competitive, more brutal and cut-throat.

. The low pay means I spend large chunks of my free time freelancing. I enjoy it but it can be exhausting. Atm I'm embroiled in a dispute with a client who is refusing to pay for some completed work (with £700) - turns out he's con man with a dodgy past. I'm having to take him to a small claims court - yet more of my time and energy wasted.

. Similar to an occasion a few months back where a hotel Cornwall was nothing like the pics when I got there - it was in a disgusting state. I cancelled and went elsewhere, and then was embroiled in a 3 month battle to get my money back, with the owner only relenting when I got the local council involved.

Spotting a pattern?

If you're not rich in this country everything's just a pointless, exhausting fight to keep your head above water. Every economic interaction is just a vicious bare-knuckle fight, with people out to shaft you for what they can. Honestly, if it wasn't for my family and friends I really would have just given up on the human race.

I won't go into the this country's general lack of manners, the yobbish behaviour of many people here, the rows of homeless tents in out high streets, the crappy education system, the utterly broken and corrupt political system, and the general utter madness society seems to fall further into with every passing year. The quality of life here just deteriorates every year.

So, basically, I don't want to inflict this on a child. My life is worse than my parents - fact. I'm doubt I'll ever reach their level. If you're not rich, children have no future in this country - just an endless treadmill of debt and exploitation. And every trend I've discussed above is getting worse - I just dread to think how things will be when they grew up.

And before people start saying, 'maybe it's you' - believe you me, I've fought coming to these conclusions tooth and nail. Grew up in a firm Old Labour home - solidarity and all that. I used to be the classic caring, sharing, naive people-pleaser - after years of being taken advantage of and shafted I've bit by bit given up. Now all I care about is myself, my family and my immediate friends.

@roarfeckingroarr I guess it depends on location, I live in an expensive area of London

God the moaning. The idea that other European countries are all utopia is hilarious. Life is what you make it. Go and live somewhere else if you want and whatever deluded people say, Brexit doesn’t mean you can’t live in another country in Europe.

It means that most British people can't. Which is relevant.

I sympathise, OP. I wouldn't have a child even if you had more money - Global Warming is only going in one direction. Things are going to get very ugly very soon.

Yea, I would love to leave (again) but we now can't. I moved to the continent twice and so long as we were part of the EU it was quite easy to get a job. Not anymore.

But why can't Brits admit that have public services that don't work, living in pretty low quality housing, having the longest commutes etc in Europe is not something to be proud of. Growth of food banks, hospital waiting lists, low productivity and low wages all suggest that this is not a country thats doing well.

That’s what’s called a false dichotomy.

And yes, if you need to move for work, that’s pretty normal to do.

Or you can stay and struggle, and blame everyone else.

actually the fact that you are able to live alone and you are able to make a decision on childbearing is proof that you live in a developed country. In dog-eat- dog societies that are unfair and unequal, people don't live alone. They live communally. They marry at a young age; even in countries like China where it is normal for women to go to university and work in professional jobs, you are regarded as a 'left over woman' if you are single at the age of 27. this isn't just because society is sexist and misogynistic, parents know that their daughters would be financially better off married to a man (as the man is required to buy an apartment for them to live in).
In a truly dog eat dog world, people's personal lives are entwined with their economic interactions.It isn't just your landlord not repairing your fridge, its having to live with your parents, grandparents and siblings even as a working adult. Naturally there is no rent to pay in such a scenario.
Its feeling like you should marry a certain person because of how much they earn; as that would make life easier and perhaps mean
you can afford your own place- and of course you would choose someone who already has a deposit. People in dog eat dog societies don't make such decisions because they are greedy or materialistic, they do so because they know that it may be the difference between being able to pay for medical treatment and watching a parent die.

When I moved to the UK for university, I was amazed at how people were empowered to make decisions and structure their lives independently without fear of the consequences. How people could move out at 18 and somehow not worry that they would become homeless and fall into trouble. How women can quit their jobs after getting pregnant and not worry they would be destitute if their husband runs off. how even

older people of modest means can tell their children confidently that they are very well off and their kids don't have to support them.

Which bit is a false dichotomy?

This is not correct. No EU country has banned U.K. citizens from working there, you can still live and work across the EU it’s just that you now need different paperwork.

That may be what you see. I see a completely different UK.

I'm a single mum with one ds but we live somewhere green and quiet - I'm not a city person - and we have nice friendly neighbours. I don't earn city wages but can give us a decent life, our own home, not luxury but warm, safe, healthy and consistent.

I can't afford hotels or foreign holidays, I cook from scratch, watch every penny, but we'll spend the summer cycling and swimming, Things could always be better but DS will have a good time.

I have a woman from Barcelona working for me. She says there is much more opportunity here than in Spain.

It’s the renting which is depressing. If you haven’t experienced long term renting with no hope you knu don’t get it.

It depends what you're used to though. I've lived in Switzerland and the rural east of The Netherlands and the UK is pretty crap compared to both. I also live in Scotland and swimming in the nearest safe, shallow large loch was banned for the last 2 summers by Natural Scotland or whatever its called now. You have to pay to park wherever you drive to in the countryside, theres barely any public transport and the roads are falling to bits. Theres also litter everywhere. I do feel like I have a lower standard of living here and things seem to be getting worse all the time.

What I would say is that people in the UK demand high levels of housing. Many people in other countries live quite happily in apartments, often rented and house share when they're young. British people seem to want a 3 bedroom new build in their twenties and to live at home until they find it! Here in Scotland, the rules on rented properties are so strict that if you applied them to Dutch property market, about 75% of properties wouldn't be allowed to be rented out! I would assume all of that puts rental costs up and theres hardly any self build market either.

I'm so fed up I'm moving out of the UK again. Its not bad when you compare it to eastern or southern European countries or the third world but it doesn't rack up that well compared to other western European countries.

I actually don't think they demand high levels of housing. I think they demand a specific housing style which takes up a lot of land to build and in locations where there isn't much spare land. My MIL's 3 bed Victorian terraced house in London is the same size as a government flat in my home country Singapore- 1000 square feet. However, apartment living is not popular in this country; in fact an older lady who owns a flat in Hampstead (posh area in London) told me that in the 1930s when her flat was built, the English people didn't want to buy the flats so her grandparents (jewish immigrants) bought it instead. I don't think its just the leasehold situation; there are plenty of flats with share of freehold in my area but people still prefer a tiny 2 up 2 down with a little garden even though there is less floor space once you take the staircase into account. And while most people don't mind living in the suburbs, the vast majority still live in urban areas (due to schools/amenities/work) and in those towns, its hard to find land to build these 3 bed houses in any significant number. If they do find a spare field, someone immediately develops an emotional attachment to it because it was where they proposed to their wife/walked their dog 20 years ago etc etc and they protest against the building of new homes until the council relents (or the local MP risks losing an election).

If you look at the average german family apartment, they are often bigger than 1000 square feet so a British family would have more space if there were apartments built to cater for that and it would take up less land.

I did live at home with my DH's mum until we bought our place and it is a 2 bed flat. The 3 bed new builds in our area cost £1.3 million so I don't think many FTB would expect to buy that!

Agree. In the rest of the world, people live in apartments quite happily, but god forbid a British child live in one. Cries of child abuse....

child abuse? its quite common in London...

But it means that many people move to cheaper locations in search for that 3/4 bed semi detached once their DC1 hits primary age while their counterparts in other densely populated world cities might just stay put. This means more pressure on housing supply. Also why Winchester, not London, is the most unaffordable city in the UK when you look at house prices vs local incomes.

To pick just one example of British housing requirements, staircases. Most of the staircases in countries like The Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany, France, etc haven't been permitted in the UK for quite a while now, and instead we are required to have much larger, wider staircases taking up far more room.

But in Scotland at least, the rules on rental properties are far, far greater than anywhere else I've ever lived. Mains operated smoke alarms (also required in private homes in Scotland), self closing fireresistant doors, emergency lighting, fire proof letterboxes, certain kinds of locks, fire escape plans, 3 yearly inspections, licenses, landlord registration, letting agent compulsary training and registration, etc etc all add considerable costs onto renting property.

In other countries, you vote with your feet. If you want a more luxurious, higher standard rental, you pay more. If you want a more basic standard, you pay less. Battery operated smoke alarms are generally fine.

Its a strange dichotomy in the UK because other things aren't safe at all. Its really rare in Britain to get foot bridges or underpasses over or under major roads, and you have to take your life in your hands to cross. Drains aren't cleared as standard annually and theres always flooding. But I guess that involves public provision not private and thats the reason why.

I think some of the issue is the service charges on some flats (and before anyone comments, yes, I know many new build houses have these because I live in one). The difference is that I pay £10 a month, and my friend in Middlesbrough was paying £130 a month for a £95k 2 bed flat. She thought that was good because it included buildings insurance and someone hoovered the hallway once a month... There is a beautiful converted mill in my northern hometown - £175 a month because you can use the gym and pool. You cannot opt out.

I feel bad for your frustrations OP but since you are making complete generalisations I can do the same and say that despite sounding a similar age (early 30s?) none of what you've said reflects my life or that of my friends/family members. Despite definitely not coming from a well off family (first on both sides to go to uni, grandparents were miner, mechanic, school dinner lady etc) and going to a pretty shitty comp (not one where anyone ever went to Oxbridge from!), I was at a wedding with about 20 of my old school friends plus partners the other weekend. All of us apart from 1 own our own houses (and have for the last 3-8 years). We all have fairly decent jobs, earning between £30-50k. I obviously don't know the full financial background of how they were all able to buy but having grown up with them, and knowing their parents jobs, house prices in our town etc can be pretty confident that most weren't given a huge whack towards a deposit. My friends from uni and co-workers are pretty similar.

I'm not saying it's always been really easy and everything has fallen into our laps - we graduated into the recession too and my first full time job in 2009 paid less than £12k per year. We've all spent our time in shitty jobs and overpriced flatshares. And yes, the few people I know whose families are well off have definitely had it much easier, and yes, I understand that even not coming from a wealthy background I am still privileged in other ways (health, supportive family, etc.) and yes I am expecting to have to tighten my belt a little bit over the next few years/months due to the cost of living crisis. There are a LOT of things about the UK that could do with improvement and I totally appreciate that some people have had it a lot harder than me. But the media represents every single millennial and Gen X as being completely fucked financially but, you know, lots of us are actually doing ok.

So a long ramble just to say I'm sorry you're unhappy but your experiences don't reflect everyone's.

It does cover the roof and for me also garden maintenance. Flats are also much cheaper than houses. I mean an equivalent house in my area would cost £600k, 200k more than my flat. Even at record low interest rates (when I fixed in 2019), that is the equivalent of £800 per month. I probably wouldn't buy a flat in middlesbrough as the houses cost around the same as the flats. the areas where people really struggle to buy houses are where people should be buying flats- the south and the major cities. That is where there is the housing crisis. The rest of the areas have an earnings crisis, not a housing crisis. £175 for a gym and pool actually sounds pretty good to me lol. You should see the service charges on some mansion blocks in Kensington; but again if you compare it to a house in Kensington...

But of course I know there is the cladding crisis so I would add a disclaimer- buy pre war and try to buy share of freehold/residents managed. But my point wasn't about the pros and cons of flats; of course everyone has their viewpoint.

My point was that a lot of British people only want to buy houses despite the fact they can't afford houses in a location which makes sense for them to live in for whatever reason. Hence they are paying rent to a landlord for the foreseeable future. Ok thats a perfectly legitimate choice but my personal view point is that I would rather pay service charge and my mortgage than the £1600 rent I would be paying if I didn't own.

It is correct. Most British people would not qualify for immigration, in the same way most EU nationals would no longer qualify for immigration into the UK.

Actually the no irish, no dogs, no blacks sign thing is a myth.

I don't even live in the UK and I've seen photos of the signs!

@AchatAVendre I broadly agree with you about renting out property in Scotland, but fire alarms under the new system don't have to be mains powered. There do have to be a lot of them though. The SNP say that the new fire alarm rules are because of Grenfall, but that was nothing to do with fire alarms, as far as I'm aware. They seem to be very fond of over-the-top regulation which makes life difficult for the many people in Scotland who don't have much money. There's also an acute shortage of tradesmen to do necessary work, which I'm sure is the same in much of the UK.

There seems to be a long term policy move (which is also endorsed by the Landlords Association) to push out what they deem to be amateur landlords (landlords with 1-5 properties) in favour of build to rent corporations. This is thought to professionalize the rental sector. And its seen to be a vote winner as well as they hope that the amateur landlords will be selling to FTB. Of course some rich people may decide that this is the perfect time to buy a house for their 18 year old student child so probably not the FTB the government had in mind.

I did buy my flat from an ex landlord so I guess i benefit from this policy too but it does mean rental would be more expensive as more landlords sell up.

OP would simply love Somalia