To think men are still expected to earn more than women (relationships)

[SleepDreamThinkHuge]

Do you think this is still the case in a lot of relationships? Is this still true in countries like UK, USA etc..

I think we should be looking at why men earn more that women and addressing that.

I notice in the UK there's a very large proportion of girls and women who still don't make career choices that will lead to financial independence. Still the expectation that they'll meet a partner who will help them. Until they're either single mothers or divorced, they don't seem to realise that earning enough (whatever that may entail) to support you is the real emancipation. It's also telling that a lot of the lowest paying careers in society, also the least practical education pathways, are still female dominated. This isn't patriarchy at play because other far more patriarchal and impoverished countries will have women who've managed to get an education, looking to be financially independent. Look at all the immigrant and expat women in the UK who move here expressly to earn money. I think it's down to parents and educators to tell young girls they should focus on learning skills and doing jobs that can support them, are the future, and not just following a passion. Like we do with young boys. Also teaching them young how to negotiate pay and be confident.

Then how do you tally that with the fact that out of the gate, women earn more than men? It's not lack of ambition, is it?

Okay, I see what you’re saying and agree.

For me, in the current climate (not the lovely ideal your post aspires to!), as a single parent whose husband fucked off, I take responsibility in my life and do everything - career, parenting, childcare, housework. So I’m looking for the next man I commit to to be someone who’s taken equal responsibility in his own life to progress his career. So if we were comparing me, a woman, to a man who was broadly a match intellectually and in age, because he’s not had career/progression hits from carrying and caring for a baby that I’ve experienced as a woman, I expect him to be earning more than me.

But maybe hope is a better word than expect? I’m just not that enamoured at the idea of settling for another man who earns less!

Precisely. Women are getting the shorter end of the stick by design not because they lack the intelligence / aspiration to want more for themselves.

Having said that on another thread a poster made a very pithy comment which is worth repeating here: the 2 biggest life choices a woman is going to make are whether to have children and secondly (if so) who to choose to be the father of their children. It stands to reason because this choice can and will significantly impact a woman's life in almost all areas.

I was the higher earner with my ex and in many other relationships but some (maybe even many) women still do expect that, yes.

imo the stereotype of man as “provider” is anti feminist and harmful to women as a whole. But there is no doubt that there are some women who will not be able to be high earners themselves and will be worse off if they are expected to contribute equally financially.

Nothing against those who work less for kids but we should have the same attitude whether they are male or female. Yet on mn men who don’t work are spongers and cocklodgers but the equivalent for a woman is a hard working sahp who is facilitating her dh career and thus deserves his wages.

"I think hypergamy is a bigger thing in the US than the UK"

Is this really true or just the impression given by those incel websites that moan bitterly about woman wanting "Chads"?

My dp has no qualifications, hardly went to school, can’t spell for shit (actually very intelligent though), and makes upward of £1k per week as a construction worker.

I have a 1st class science degree and I could never dream of earning that much.

I dream of meeting a man who’s taken enough responsibility in his life to earn more than I do. I’m not a high earner (just over average) and haven’t met one yet

I think the problem with this is that an ambitious man may be looking for the equivalent in a partner, that you too would have taken enough responsibility to earn an above average salary.

Re the article posted about better educated women marrying up, it's easier for them to do so as despite the fact they may end up a well resourced stay at home parent, their partner undoubtedly finds their level of education/earning power attractive. It's a more equal partnership for a financially successful men

@WhatWereTheSkiesLikeWhenYouWereYoung why not though?

With shared parental leave it’s perfectly possible for children to have the same impact on mens career as womens. It doesn’t at a societal level yet but that’s because we have different expectations of men and women. We need to change that imo for true equality.

i returned to work with dd2 at 10 months. I had a full time nanny but dh dropped a day and did most of childcare as his hours were shorter and I was higher earner by far. I have seen men in the city take parental leave now to take burden off their wives careers and to spend time with their children. Just a few but it’s progress.

women actually earn better than men pre child bearing so if we can sort more equal childcare it will be a huge breakthrough.

You are clearly capable & intelligent

@plugee because I live in a rural area with very limited job opportunities, and I have 2 dc with disabilities so would struggle to work FT. But even if I was working FT, the jobs around here just don’t pay that kind of money. DP has no kids and travels to wherever the work is (anywhere in U.K. or Europe). I have 4 PT jobs at the moment, sometimes I browse the job ads but I would at very best be on £25k a year around here working FT.

I've always been the higher earner, so never experienced this

But what I have seen is that men 'think' their job is more important. It was almost always left to me to take time off for dc etc, even after I pointed out that me losing my job would have a bigger impact financially, than if they lost theirs.

I think that’s true. I do see some city men though that prefer to date “down” (particularly women in stereotypical famine low earning roles). It seems to me they do this as they don’t like to be challenged and it’s an ego boost. These types are best avoided imo.

I think there is something in that but also some women don’t want to step up into the financial provider role or take that responsibility. It’s absolutely fair to expect men to do their share with children but there is often resistance on mn to women being expected to do their share of financially contributing in a relationship.

I've never had a partner who earnt more than me. Always been the breadwinner. Bit fed up of that to be honest.

I think there is something in that but also some women don’t want to step up into the financial provider role or take that responsibility. It’s absolutely fair to expect men to do their share with children but there is often resistance on mn to women being expected to do their share of financially contributing in a relationship.

I agree with this. Of course nothing wrong with someone wanting to stay gone but there's often the narrative that working means never picking up your dc or attending sports day. DH & I both do this & he had 3months paid pat leave which is becoming more common

I don't know about other couples and it's none of my business. I prefer my husband making more money than me, because it works with our plans. He's career driven type, me not so much.

I don't think it's an expectation. I think it's the reality. Women's careers are interrupted more often by family responsibilities; "family women" are seen as less reliable than "family men"; and "women's work" is still not valued.

Dp expects me to earn enough to keep up our lifestyle post-baby.
Then she'll decide whether she wants to go back to her career or set up a business. This would give us the ultimate flexibility for our family.
It depends on where the relationship-children stands in relation to the career.

She is of the mind to prioritize marriage and children. I understand this isn't the case for everyone.

But not so often in the traditional professions. I'm a lawyer and most lawyers I know are married to other lawyers or doctors, dentists, etc. that they met at university. The only one whom I can think of who is not is married to a waste of space man. It was a big surprise to me when I married DH (engineer) that when I met some of his work colleagues' wives (only one of his colleagues was a woman) that they often didn't work. Not particularly high earners either, although they think they are Not only that, none of his colleagues ever ask me what I do for a living.

Management and engineering and I'm sure some other fields are a bit of an outlier in this IMHO. Farming is an interesting one - increasingly, medium sized farms make no money and are a tax writeoff and the wife will work in a well paid job to provide for living expenses, while getting a nice house with land in the countryside to live in.

Anecdotally, of the couples I know across my friend groups in the UK, US, and AU, there are maybe four or five where the man is the higher earner and in all the rest it's the woman. This holds true whether there are children or not. I can count only two with an actual SAHP.

I find this interesting in my own case, as I'm more driven than DH career-wise and even though I've made some pretty major career leaps in the last five years and hold more professional qualifications (I have an MBA, he has a diploma in something that didn't have a degree programme at the time), we're still not on parity salary-wise, not even close. This even takes into account the fact that I've never had a career break or maternity leave (note: there are no medals for this, don't); I ran my own business when the DC were small and then went back as an employee afterwards. Our fields aren't vastly different, though the sectors vary, and again, anecdotally this salary discrepancy is far more pronounced when we live in the UK.

Not that I specifically looked for earning potential in a partner, but a sense of personal responsibility and a decent work ethic was certainly on the list.

I've always been the higher earner. At points quite a bit more. Now just 250 quid a year more.