A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

@hangonsnoopy - ok, thank you for that information
Love your user name!

Is a baby worth less than any other human being because their parents are forced to claim benefits?

If you know anything at all about Jesus (which I suspect you don't) you will kindly remember that he

was BORN IN A BARN. HOMELESS and reliant upon the good will of strangers.

Thank God there are Christians out there who get that story.

I’m presuming that viagra is banned in these states, surely the inability to get an erection is Gods will?

The person is political kid.

Hundreds of years of feminisms. Though you might have understood that one on a basic level.

I've not heard many refer to it as interfering with god. What I've read between the lines of pro forced birthers is the following.

-pregnancy and birth is punishment for being irresponsible enough to get pregnant.
-you are an incubator and the potential life has more worth than you.
-as a woman you shouldn't possibly consider that you can have any sort of meaningful life, or worthwhile career, your role is to produce children.
-you can't make any choices for the fetus, as it is a separate body to yours despite the fetus living inside your body, developing of the nutrients you provide it, despite the fact you have to change your lifestyle, cut out foods, alcohol, exercise, and that it needs to painfully tear through your body once ready for birth potentially causing you life changing injuries, but still it's "not part of your body".
-if you don't want to keep the child, just give it up for adoption, as if it's that simple. And that's still doesn't negate the fact you are forcing someone to carry a fetus for 9 months and birth it.

I follow a forced birther, an old college friend, she posts a load of rubbish about abortions being 'anti woman', that by allowing abortions we are telling them they are not capable, that there is therapy, free supplies, refuges etc available for struggling new mums, she says 95% of people regret abortions (made up statistic). Basically there's no justification for killing a 'baby'.

To me, it literally comes down to the fact that her life revolves around babies, she can't comprehended that others don't think of pregnancy as anything other than a blessing. She is narrow minded and knows nothing of the difficult decisions some have to face.

She and they (all forced birthers) shame women for wanting an abortion.

Shame women for having the baby and not being anything other than a doting mother.

Shame women for developing mental health issues, resulting in them neglecting their children or accidentally harming their children.

Shame women for being in an environment surrounded by abuse, poverty, poor diets etc.

They Shame women for being anything other than happy little incubators, who are willing to give everything up to take full care and financial responsibility of another life.

They are not in the slightest pro women!

Sorry I'm feeling ranty. I'm also going to delete that college friend of Instagram.

I had a problem with the edit feature, I meant to say in the UK, with the exception of Northern Ireland which wasn't subject to the same abortion laws as the rest of the UK

Typo.

The personal is political kid. You being the troll you are at least acknowledge that as a fact, also that others are intelligent enough to SEE you.

Gheesh.

Or just looking both ways before you cross the road, using a non-slip bath mat, having inoculations, not eating pink chicken, wearing a crash helmet... I don't know how religious people decide what God's happy to control and what they should take responsibility for themselves! It seems like a proper minefield to me!

Meaning Cartoonmum is trolling.

Fairly clear if not crystal that some despicable right wing twats will be seeking to voice themselves on this forum.

'Benefit babies' is the pits.

Mods?

That is the case for women who are granted late abortions. It isn't for those who are turned down for late abortions. NICE published some of the decisions around that and it was very complex. For example a South Asian woman who was pregnant without her family knowing, and who would be undergoing a third trimester abortion in secret shortly before flying abroad to an arranged marriage, with the additional risk that entails. She was denied an abortion.

I don't agree with abortion and I don't agree with IVF. This was hard for me as we had fertility issues but for me personally I cannot pick and choose what I will and won't accept and just rationalise what I want.

I also don't think I have the right to judge anyone else but yes was absolutely delighted that Roe v Wade was overturned.

@tictoc76 Are you able to explain why you were delighted that Roe v Wade was overturned?

Acting like god surely doesn’t mean the same as doing it in the name of god? I’m kind of religious but am pro life simply because I see it as stopping a baby’s chance to live. My cousin’s mum nearly had an abortion but decided not to and gave her up for adoption. My cousin is one of the best people and has helped us all through really tough times and I do sometimes think about it. I am coming round more to the side of a person’s right to choose but every so often I think of how far along a woman can be-I’ve had a miscarriage and I’ve had 4 kids too- the thought of a baby at 20 weeks suddenly being stopped from going any further is horrible.

I can see a difference. The argument that is often made by pro abortion side is that the fetus is a parasite, an unwanted tenant, and all the mother is doing is evicting it. Therefore, even if a fetus is actually a living human, the woman should still be allowed to evict.

To that argument a differentiation can be made between how she got pregnant. I think there is an argument to be made that having sex carries a known risk of having to support a baby for 9 months until it is born. Much the same way fathers can't abdicate their responsibility to their child and can be coerced to pay CM. Because they willingly engaged in a activity where there was a known risk of a child being conceived.

However, if the conception was done by force in the first place, there is more room for the evicting a squatter argument.

I'm pro women deciding what they do with their own bodies. I'm not a fan of ivf because I've seen it end in heartbreak for friends but for those that succeed all good. I am not a fan of surrogacy, but that's only recently and due to MN education.

What I do think is relevant though, is that in the states there is no prenatal care, it costs £10k to have basic birth, there is no maternity, no employment rights, no childcare. Whilst we would have problems in Europe, this is literally going to destroy lives. Plus if a woman has a miscarriage she can be investigated for murder. Gilead.

@stayingpositiveifpossible - no, admittedly, I don't know much about Jesus. Raised RC, but never paid attention in CCD, now an athiest.

But, I am very much in favor of supporting people who are struggling financially. That's why I vote liberal/progressive.

Can you explain why the States criminalizing abortion offer the least amount of services to fight poverty? They actually reject free money from the US government earmarked for providing health care to the poor.

What kind of morals do you have if you insist on forced birth, but do not care if the child has a home, clothes, food, health care, access to quality education, and protection from gun violence?

Jesus commanded his disciples to heal the sick; there's also the your body is the temple bit which tells you to take care of it.

That is very dismissive. I'm well past the age of justifying IVF because it affects me but I have no issue justifying it. If you are a person of faith it is straightforward to believe God gave us the ability to do it just like heart transplants or chemotherapy and I see it as something positive.

I imagine prolife supporters have a spectrum of beliefs and most would follow the doctrine of having an abortion to save the life of the mother. I don't imagine many people would believe the woman should die and inevitably it would result in the death of the baby in those cases although I am old enough to remember when more people did believe that.

By the way I take issue with ‘religious people’- they’re religious extremists. You can be religious and not be using god as a reason against everything and anything!!!!!

Heavens above, lets all sit on the fence shall we? Good luck with that one.

Women are girls are going to die as a result of the ruling.

Women are girls are going to die as a result of the ruling.

Exactly. It won’t stop abortion, just safe abortion.

That's why you are using the term 'benefits babies' because you are in support of mothers and families on a low income.

I get it. Excuse me if i see straight through it.

Wtf

That may be the case for some, certainly in America at the moment, but caricature of 'bad people' neither help or are accurate.

I'm relatively pro life (would prefer stricter time limits). I have no pointy horns. I have no issues with casual sex. I think contraception is great. I'm a pretty staunch gender critical feminist on everything except this. I oppose the death penalty, support gay marriage etc.

I also believe that life starts at conception, albiet not an 'equal life' at that stage, and that as it becomes more developed and more aware, then it's personhood develops.

Its very inconvenient. I'd much rather believe it started at birth. But I don't.

For me, it's all about those babies. And I'm sorry if that is inconvenient to you also.

I believe life starts at conception.

Ancient Indian cultures believe life is the sperm itself therefore, masturbation is a sin.

Abortions are very sad but I won't say I am anti abortion - people have to lead their own lives and make their own decisions.

I've never met a woman to date that had not regretted an abortion but I know women from a very similar background so, it could be the upbringing.

I don't believe abortions and IVF are two sides to the same coin.
Perhaps the OP without realising is thinking on a Christian basis due to the issues in America and the groups involved.

Eastern faiths won't think the same way.
Life is better than death.
Any form of life and any way of making life is God's gift to us.
Taking life is something for the conscious to bear.

So people such as myself, undergoing IVF, from an Eastern faith background are not hypocritical that we would avoid abortion and pursue IVF in the same lifetime.

A doctor that carries out an abortion but resuscitates an old man is not a hypocrite.

Wanting to preserve life is not hypocritical - anti-abortion and IVF are pursuing life.

A Hindu woman died in Ireland because the doctors would not allow her to abort her pregnancy that had gone very wrong. Her husband begged ... saying we are Hindus not Catholics, not Christians, not Irish we do not believe the same as you. However, they said it was the country's laws. The Hindu woman died.
My brother a doctor and I debated this.
I said how dare they impose their foreign religion on the Hindu couple and cause the woman's death.
My brother said you have to obey the law of the country you are in.

My point - pro life, pro IVF, doesn't make me a hypocrite - eastern faiths and cultures can identify the two hand in hand.