Forest school only for 'select' children

[Eyelashesrgreat]

Ds in Y3 and his school have recently 'selected' children from his class to go to forest school. The children do this weekly whilst the other children have to stay at school and do work. The children (selected) get to wear their own clothes that day and have treats.

The school did the same thing last year and ds wasn't chosen then. Ds has had a really difficult time recently at school and would have loved to have been selected for this activity. I asked his teacher if all the children will eventually get their turn at the forest school but she has said only certain children can go. AIBU to think this is a bit unfair?

@Walkaround SEN children are not the only children with extra needs say what now? SEN literally means special educational needs.

I would also say that it is extremely concerning that you as a parent consider this lack of information security ‘normal’, even positive. It means that the culture of the school and the community (who probably gloat about their lovely friendly and open school) is rotten throughout.

I think it's selecting kids that have additional things going on either with development or at home etc

I’m not a fan of the trend towards prioritising some children over others for things that seem like extra fun/a treat- I do understand why it seems a good idea and limitations are often related to school budgets- but it creates division and it’s often the quiet/well-behaved children who just get on with things that get overlooked.

If there are to be criteria then schools really need to be quite transparent about it, rather than leaving parents guessing. The secrecy/not being clear about why some children don’t get to benefit from something (which is supposed to be great for all children) causes irritation. The school don’t need to be specific but without any clue it can look like special treatment for some to the detriment of others. If there is obvious reasoning- “we only have sufficient funds for x number per year/term to do y activity so we are limiting it to children who have some additional need for this activity due to a,b,c criteria”. No specifics and it won’t be more of a giveaway/revealing re SEN etc than having an additional TA for one child or a child spending some time in learning support base.

Transparency usually demystifies things and most people will accept a clear explanation, even if the disagree and might grumble a bit. And let’s face it, in some schools there are faces that fit and those that don’t, teachers aren’t always unbiased (my childhood headmistress always favoured the children of her/our local minister and to a lesser extent those whose parents had roles within the church/well known in church circles- it was painfully obvious) and some parents are extremely pushy and good at getting their own way. If the criteria were laid down, it would be more obvious to a parent that their child did/did not fit the criteria and stop a lot of irritation.

Of course some parents will still believe it is unfair- I think I would too and not be overly happy but I could at least see a logic.

In a small village school or in a small village generally? Yes perfectly believable. Everyone knows everyone else's business.

I find it strange people saying in the 90s there was all these nice provisions for disruptive children.

I was classed as 'disruptive' due to my disabilty (I actually was just frustraiting by a lack of support and basicly bullying by teachers. They litrally singled me out sat me on a 'dunce' table alone facing the rest of the class because I physically couldnt keep up with the other kids. Example: I couldnt hold a pen so couldnt write properly there for 'wasn't completing work' etc....) and I was the kid left OUT of everything.

My mam had to fight tooth and nail to get them to let me join in anything and they would deliberately try to stop my mam finding out about school trip, dances, special 'fun' classes, play rehersals etc... until after they happened too.

everything is out in the open at our school. We meet outside of school sometimes too and then parents sometimes help out in the school office when it's busy so they hear information there.

Are you in the UK? Because in the UK that is very unacceptable and would get a school in huge trouble. Confidential information shouldn't be disclosed to parent helpers.

YABU sorry, these children have SEN and are going into alternative provision because they can’t cope in the classroom.

the school sound like they are doing an excellent job in trying to be inclusive and find suitable provision for these children, which is expensive and likely underfunded.

be grateful that your child is coping, and that you can provide the special treats for them.

be grateful that your child is coping,

The OP's child isn't coping in school. He has been/is being bullied and has self esteem problems.

If it is part of supporting kids who are struggling emotionally or academically then that sounds fine, but if not, then it sucks. At my DCs primary a select group of the more high flying kids got to go to the beach one day while the others stayed in school and every year they sent a similar cohort for a day at a nearby independent school where they got to do science in proper labs and use all the facilities - probably some sneaky recruitment drive. My kids were never chosen and the whole thing was run in a very secret squirrel manner.

They can’t have transparency in loads of ways though - they can’t say ‘we’re going to take some kids out to the forest, and the kids are chosen because they struggle with making friends and their parents are going through an awful divorce. Also some of them we think are probably autistic but we can’t prove it yet’.

The OP's child isn't coping in school. He has been/is being bullied and has self esteem problems. well presumably he is doing better than the children who need forrest school once a week. You don’t know what the other children need. Demanding that everyone needs “the same” is the most childish and ridiculous suggestion. Honestly sometimes the level of ignorance on MN is horrifying.

He's been there since reception, lost all confidence (from being a bright bubbly boy to a shadow of himself). I am considering moving him for lots of reasons but have hung on in there thinking it might improve after talks with the school. I'm not saying it's a 'dump' it's just been upsetting to see how sone children are favoured and others aren't.

OP rather than analysing the crap going on in that school move him. It’s the perfect time to do it before the holidays.

Cliquey village schools aren’t always the idylls that people imagine. My daughter was unhappy at a village school, so moved her to a large town primary. She’s happy and thriving now. I have zero politics to deal with, it’s awesome.

Not all schools suit all children, my older one was fine at the village one. It’s isn’t a dump or a crap school, but a few things just weren’t right. Including the mix of kids in my younger daughter’s year group.

How do you know this?
My son is classed as SEN but he masks all day in school and only melts down when he's not in school.
Nobody who is not a teacher at the school knows what his issues are.

well presumably he is doing better than the children who need forrest school once a week

With all due respect you know nothing about it - why are you doubting what the OP is saying?

Her child is unhappy and the school is doing little to help. This does happen.

We have a similar scheme where I work (secondary). To be honest, I think the students picked to go out on these days end up much worse off as they (over the year) miss out on a few hundred hours of education, intervention etc. The students left behind don't get talked over by the seemingly confident/ naughty children and it is a joy to teach with no interruptions. Unfortunately this means the reading age / learning gap increases between those who are PP students and those who are not. So I guess it all depends how you look at it. But I imagine it is disheartening for the students not invited....

This is a very good outline of what I believe many schools follow when they offer programmes like this to only 'some' children.

I think most should be grateful their children aren't having the difficulties these children are having.

I could never understand parents who would not tell a sole, some don’t even tell their child that the child has an SEN.
As people do know these “secrets”

Other children and other parents of SEN children pick up on stuff going on.

I have always been open and honest about why dc struggle with certain things so when they would see other children with similar issues they would ask them about it and share their issues. (Dds senior school had an hours joint discussion group each week for those who had SENs or suspected SENs where they would discuss their difficulties with certain problems they had been having and methods others did to overcome them)

It does SOUND unfair from your OP. If there is an element of favouritism, then that is completely out of order. But how could you prove this without prying into the personal circumstances of each child selected? And that, of course, would be unacceptable. Maybe you should ask the principal what the criteria are for inclusion and, based on that, you can decide whether or not to make a case for your son to go.

DS1 was sent to an activity group in P3 and P4 to learn about forming friendships because he struggled with this. He didn't have any formal diagnosis to trigger his inclusion in this group - just the fact that he was not managing well socially (he is now awaiting autism assessment several years later). On a side note, his younger brother is still at the school, which has since attained Forest School accreditation, so all pupils in the school get to light fires, build shelters, toast marshmallows etc and interact with nature. It's been brilliant for them.

I used to help in my DCs school. I stayed away from the staff room at break time as I assumed sometime they might want to talk about their class room experiences that morning and wouldn’t be able to if I was there.

My children go to a tiny village school. You really do not know what is going on behind closed doors. People are more likely to put on a front so not to be judged when in affluent areas.

My boys get extra time out the class room, not because they are sen. But because their own father put them through some horrific trauma. They do fun things, they get extra certificates. Theyre not badly behaved children nor do we receive PP but the school are aware theyve had a lot to deal with in their lives and give them more TLC. The other parents do not know this, but if you did, would you still be begrudging my children some extra support?

@toomuchlaundry no I'm not the one helping in the office, I work full time so just hear it at the school gates or when I catch up with people

Pupil Premium funding is often known as Forever Six because it lasts for 6 years from when it was awarded, regardless of whether the family circumstances improve.
Not all SEND children attract additional funding. Not all SEND children are visibly supported by a TA. Schools can apply for Higher Needs top up funding - the school funds the initial cost of support, without looking it up I think that's about £800 now but don't quote me.
All those getting indignant because a SENDCO mentioned the number of pupils with SEND in the school. This will be public knowledge. Ask to read the governing board public minutes for say the last 6 months. There had better be evidence that the governors know at least what percentage of SEND there is in the school, and of course from that you could work out the number of pupils. This isn't confidential information. The names of the children is.

Children with additional needs, whatever they may be, get supported in a variety of ways. Often called interventions. They can include going out of class to work in small groups with a member of staff. They can include things like a Maths Club or Forest Schools. Interventions are sometimes also appropriate to target behaviour issues, or to stretch the more able pupils (used to be called Gifted and Talented).
The school and governors are accountable for how all of the school budget is spent, and in particular have to report separately on additional funding such as pupil premium, sports funding, covid catch up... Not just how it was spent, what the impact was and then be able to evidence that impact. Sometimes the pupil premium spend can benefit pupils who are not on that list, say for example if they need to join an intervention funded by PP. Or if a software package targeted for PP children can benefit others.
Op - if you want to know why only some children go to Forest School JUST ASK. If you don't like the answer raise a formal complaint, which will first go to the head, but can be escalated to the governors if you wish.

Or take the brilliantly positive approach suggested earlier of having a chat about how forest schools could be made available to all of the children.

Isn’t the number/ proportion of SEN on the OFSTED report anyway?

Every parent helping out in school, especially in the school office, where confidential information may necessarily be discussed, should have signed a confidentiality agreement by which they are bound. Any parent disclosing information gained in such a way should be immediately reported to the Head and should be permanently barred from being in the school office.

DS was in a small school initially, in a close knit community. At the time, before I was a teacher, I used to go in to read, and was (rightly) severely reprimanded for mentioning to a fellow parent in conversation that their child had read very nicely that day. That kind of information can be given to the teacher, who might mention it to a parent, but never in a parent to parent conversation. The head there would never have tolerated the flagrant breaches of information security you describe.