...to think it really, really counter-productive to coach children for 11+?

[duchesse]

< rant > (sorry)

I'm imagining they will come unstuck faster than a book shelf put up with NoMoreNails if they are not up to it?

Added to which the child may subsequently be dreadfully unhappy and scared to tell its parents.

Also am pissed off that the only grammar school in our area gets filled up by rich Surrey tossers who can afford a second home here ad move into catchment for their over-coached child's secondary education, thereby leaving the rest of us poor devoners to scrounge around for the pennies to send our child to the best not-free school?

That said, we do not yet know that she has not got in, but we do know that she is easily clever enough, as she walked into our local very selective very academic girls' school UNCOACHED and aced her test.

< end rant >

sorry

Have not read all answers, but:

DD was "expected" to pass, we didn't do enough practice papers and she didn't get in. (Got 11A*'s at local comp though Couldn't have got better grades at any school.)

DS had more practice (working through practice papers at home - NOT a tutor etc) and he got in.

They are both extremely happy. But, with more practice DD probably would have got in as she is bright but Non Verbal Reasoning DOES need practice to answer as quickly as exams need.

Soupdragon- you can't seriously believe that state schools are "free"? We all pay for state schools via our taxes (yes, even private school pupils) The schools are paid by someone, just not by the direct customer. Most pupils are funded to the tune of around £4500 per year by local authorities. More in expensive areas such as London, less in areas where they have budget struggles. The funding is based on pupils on roll in January as I remember.

And yes, I swear on everything I hold sacred that people genuinely move to their handily bought second homes for the duration of their child's school career. I swear that people stand up at introductory tours to ask how to apply from these places. Once they even had an enquiry from Kenya.

My "gripe" is that East Devon has one grammar school, that prides itself on offering a first class education to the children of East Devon that meet its standards, but are doing anything but- they are offering a first class education to the very brightest and best educated children they can get their hands on from literally anywhere in the world, including people who really could afford to stay put and pay fees. Except that might mean selling the second home (when so few people in Devon can even afford their first home).

And the difference in funding between the grammar school in question and our local comprehensive, and the knock-on effect on their facilities and intake, is truly breathtaking.

I am a private tutor and joined Mumsnet to put my opinion.
Firstly, one of my students is overly pressurised by his parents and I told them two years ago that he wasn't grammar school material. They didn't care and pushed him on. The boy and I talked about it and three years on, he is quite happy at the secondary modern. He was put in for every test there was - we have three grammars in the area.
What is remarkable is the number of non-white faces that come out of the local grammar. I know for a fact that some families say they will send their children back to the home country if they don't get into the grammar school. Why don't people wake up and smell the coffee? This is yet another form of stealing places from those who cannot afford tutoring or who are unaware of the efforts needed to access this sort of education.
Incidentally, I do not buy into the idea that if your child is bright enough, they wil get in anyway. The child needs to work hard and the parents need to support the child.

The whole grammar system (or what is left of it in this country) is a disgrace and an embarrassment. I am glad I don't have the "choice" to put my children through the entire rigmarole. Most people want to send their children to the nearest school. Why can't we make that a more palatable option for so many people?

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh - just noticed the date on this thread. Don't normally get caught out like this.

I was just about to get stuck in and type an essay in agreement with SoupDragon and thanks to bibbity have just seen the date of the thread.

I have been considering this for some time. And think yes practice papers only. However can you tell me if I am correct in thinking it is not a question of pass or fail but highest scores. So a child could pass and still not be accepted?

I put my DS through coaching only because everybody does it. If I really thought he couldn't cope with the work I would not have done it. He is clever, no doubt about it. Unfortunately a lot of parents who just want the best education in the area, put them through it, they pass, and spend 7 years struggling. It's horrible.

Tutoring for grammar schools is counter productive and there is research to show that this is the case. Research has shown that tutoring for verbal reasoning only improves scores by a few points.

very old thread BTW

"It is quite possible to pass the 11 plus, but not get a place as they take only the highest marks. "

This is possible anywhere the 11 plus is taken they will take the top scores that year up to the limit in numbers. Most children who take the 11 plus are a high level 5. All of them are quite capable of thriving in a grammar school, unfortunately many do not get the chance. The system is unfair.

What is it with reviving ancient threads today?

Thats what i thought but I couldn't resist anyway [sigh]

"Tutoring for grammar schools is counter productive and there is research to show that this is the case. Research has shown that tutoring for verbal reasoning only improves scores by a few points."

Disagree, coaching works
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7788039.stm

"Educational psychologist Professor Brendan Bunting has shown that children who are coached for nine months or more improve their scores at 11+ by up to 40%."

Depends what you mean by 'coaching/tutoring', I think. Having prepared DD for 11+ last year, I'd say you can definitely improve marks and speed through practice and familiarisation, but I don't think you can really 'tutor' 11+ success to someone who doesn't have the natural aptitude.

years ago when I was at university, I tutored someone who had failed a maths entrance exam for an employer. The company allowed the exam to be retaken. I studied the exam paper and taught the concepts. After about 10 lessons, I received a phone call saying that the person had got a score of 100%. There is no doubt that good tuition and good books can vastly improve performance. I think most people have the natural ability, what makes the real difference is good tuition.

But Claig, most people DON'T have the natural ability to get into a super-selective grammar. These schools only offer places to the top 10% or so scores in an aptitude test, so this is by definition not 'most people'.
What you're talking about in your maths test example is a knowledge-based exam, where tuition and books are essential. The 11+ is supposed to test cognitive ability, not knowledge, though how effective it is at this remains debatable.

the maths portion of the 11+ is just like any other maths exam. It is based on the syllabus and you have to know the concepts. If you are unlucky enough to be at a crap school then these concepts may not have been conveyed in a way that made them intelligible. The person that I taught was not in the top 10% but by the time I finished teaching, the person got 100%. Most other people are the same, they can all be taught. The current top 10% may only be where they are due to the way they have been taught. Others can easily join them and even surpass them with the correct tuition.

Non verbal and verbal reasoning are things that most children have not come across before. All they need is lots of practice and someone to point out the things to look out for. That is what prep schools do, they practise these tests and hope to give their pupils an advantage. Most state schools don't prepare children for these tests on purpose and say that you don't need to prepare. Prep schools know different and have the interests of their pupils at heart.

You are obviously a very talented teacher with a wealth of knowledge.

I'm not a teacher. But I don't think it is rocket science. You don't need a qualification in teaching to explain concepts to children, if you understand the concepts well and can put yourself in the children's shoes at their stage of learning.

What would you recommend to those people who are in this situation ?

in which situation?