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AIBU?

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Original poster

...to think it really, really counter-productive to coach children for 11+?

114 replies

duchesse · 15/01/2008 01:10

< rant > (sorry)

I'm imagining they will come unstuck faster than a book shelf put up with NoMoreNails if they are not up to it?

Added to which the child may subsequently be dreadfully unhappy and scared to tell its parents.

Also am pissed off that the only grammar school in our area gets filled up by rich Surrey tossers who can afford a second home here ad move into catchment for their over-coached child's secondary education, thereby leaving the rest of us poor devoners to scrounge around for the pennies to send our child to the best not-free school?

That said, we do not yet know that she has not got in, but we do know that she is easily clever enough, as she walked into our local very selective very academic girls' school UNCOACHED and aced her test.

< end rant >

sorry

OP posts:
castille · 15/01/2008 11:53

Ah Andie, I see the problem. It depends on whether the number of passes is decided by a mark or by a quota then. In the latter situation coaching shouldn't be necessary if a child is bright. But if it's the former then... my sympathies.

FluffyMummy123 · 15/01/2008 11:53

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CatIsSleepy · 15/01/2008 11:54

agree that kids from state primaries may need coaching (my nephew's going through it at the moment)- they will be competing against kids from private schools which will be much more geared up for this sort of thing

was surprised to learn from my CM this morning that Kent still has 11+, didn't think anywhere did these days

Blossomhill · 15/01/2008 11:55

I think it's personal choice and no one elses business. Yes I am having ds coached but not because I don't think he will pass it's just to get him used to the papers.
I am not rich but I am from surrey
All of us parents want what's best for our children and I am working 4 days a week as a midday supervisor to pay for it!!!!

snorkle · 15/01/2008 11:58

There is a problem here.

Let's say, for example, that a grammar takes the top 10% (please take all figures as illustrative in this). Then the top 1%ish are likely to pass the test with no preparation, the next 3 or 4% are likely to pass the test with a little familiarisation, but the remaining 5% are in hot competition with less able children who are heavily coached. The more outside coaching that goes on the more these kids need the coaching to get through the exam, even though they are definitely within the target ability range for the school.

So the major, major problem is how do you know if your child is in that range or below it? These days it seems you don't.

I'd be very at non locals taking up places in Devon Schools, but I don't think that coaching is necessarily counter-productive. Undesireable certainly, but as soon as some people start there's a vicious circle. I'm not in favour of selection at 11 for all sorts of reasons (this being one of them), but if you have it then this is what you have to live with I think.

mumblechum · 15/01/2008 11:59

We just got ds to do the practice papers, didn't pay a tutor or anything and he scraped thru (about 3 points over the pass mark. )

Did worry a bit about whethr he'd be ok, but was vindicated by the Midyis tests they do early in year seven which said e's a bleedin' genius, 'e is.

Clearly has inherited his father's brains.

I don't think it's counterproductive as long as they can do the practice papers easily. I was a bit surprised that ds didn't do better as he always got at least 90% in the practice papers.

Chequers · 15/01/2008 11:59

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foofi · 15/01/2008 12:00

Maybe they like the grammar school better, and by the sounds of it they've certainly paid enough taxes to warrant making use of it.

JudgeNutmeg · 15/01/2008 12:03

I can understand why parents want to get their kids into Colyton (if that's the Grammar you mean), it is a fab school. The children that I know who go there aren't just clever....they are rounded.

Someone I know coached her son for an entire year relentlesly, he got into Pates and is now having an awful time. Very sad. He is a clever boy but has been told for his entire primary schooling that he is the best and must always win. In a school full of high achievers, that doesn't go down too well. He also is a homework refuser now....I just don't know what will happen to him next. He would be crushed and mashed if he went to his local school with his peers after the way he behaved last year.

OrmIrian · 15/01/2008 12:04

What happened to the Common Entrance? I am nearly 100% sure I did that after 11+ was starting to be phased out. Back in the mid-70s. Why has the 11+ come back from the dead?

Ah well probably hopelessly out of touch. 100% private or non-selective state schools round here..

foofi · 15/01/2008 12:07

Some children still do Common Entrance at 11. However, most private schools now use their own in-house exams.

FioFio · 15/01/2008 12:07

This reply has been deleted

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OrmIrian · 15/01/2008 12:10

So are the Common Entrance and 11+ interchangeable then?

We have a very relaxed attitude round here fio.... but we also have largely crap secondary schools too . We think (and hope) we've got a good 'un lined up for DS#1 but some of the schools I wouldn't send a dog too.

Chequers · 15/01/2008 12:13

Message withdrawn

foofi · 15/01/2008 12:15

Orm - 11+ is for (state) grammars
Common Entrance is for independent schools

foofi · 15/01/2008 12:16

Just find it hard to believe that you feel they aren't entitled to send their children there on the basis that they have money!

foofi · 15/01/2008 12:17

If it was the other way around and you were saying poor people shouldn't be allowed to do something, you'd be shot down in flames.

The point of a selective school, is it selects on ability - for those who can afford it and those who can't.

OrmIrian · 15/01/2008 12:17

Ah thankyou. I went to a private school so that would make sense.

Chequers · 15/01/2008 12:17

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Chequers · 15/01/2008 12:18

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foofi · 15/01/2008 12:20

But my point was that coaching can't ever make a not-very-bright child look bright.

Chequers · 15/01/2008 12:20

Message withdrawn

Original poster
duchesse · 15/01/2008 12:23

We opted for a very laid back lovely academic but not pushy private school for our children, mainly because it allows them to build dams ad climb trees. My daughter has been challenged appropriately for her intelligence for the last three years but not stressed out by anything. She is happy, well-adjusted, confident and feels empowered. (all this for the princely sum of 1650 pounds per term (by god I love this school) which I realise already prices most people around out of the market)). All three of my children have now taken the Colyton tests. The first two failed to pass them (nuts, but heyho); the oldest is very, very bright but does not perform at a high level. The second is less bright but still very bright, and is doing very well (top of her year in some subjects) at the academic private school we decided to send them both to.

The third has just produced a reasoning test for an entrance test for another (very) selective school that places her in the top 1% of the population. We await to see what Colyton makes of her, but I'm betting my bottom dollar they say NON. I just don't know in what grounds they make their choices. Fine if they prefer state school kids, I have no problem with that. This has not been our experience with many of the kids who get in though. They often seem to come from pushy prep schools, although luckily there is a fair share of state school kids.

On the local jungle telephone though, it becomes apparent that these state school kids have in the most part been coached in the main subjects to within an inch of their lives wince yr 3. Which leaves me wondering what the grammar school wants- it seems to me it children who are schooled to a very high level before they even get there, rather than potentially very high achievers. They'd rather piggy back on their previous schooling.

OP posts:
littleshebear · 15/01/2008 12:25

Very difficult. I have two children at grammars in Trafford and they both had a tutor and practised papers. Both are quite academically bright but not top of the class, iykwim.I don't think my son would have passed without, as he had a big problem with timed work and although clever, is more talented quirkily clever than an exam passer. My daughter also needed the practise at papers- not sure if she would have passed anyway. Both are doing absolutely fine at grammar and not struggling at all, but neither is in top sets for maths or fast tracked languages, so obviously average in ability for grammar school.

However, my ds2 is top of the class and is very academically able in comparison with his siblings - I can't imagine him not passing.I may get him a tutor for a short period to practise papers, or I may do it myself.I think you have to remember that grammars usually take the top 40% ish (in this area, anyway) so there is a wide range of ability that gets in.Some children are so bright they do not need to practise, because they will just "get" the tests anyway - ds2 is like this really. Ds1 and Dd1 needed the practise.It doesn't necessarily mean they will struggle at school.

SoupDragon · 15/01/2008 12:37

So, you paid to send your children to a private school and are whinging because some pupils get "coached" for entrance exams? Do you not think that their privileged private education has not prepared them in a similar way to a state school pupil being coached in how to do the tests? Certainly the private schools round here all do these sorts of tests as part of their curriculum, DSs very good state primary does not so I will be coaching them/having them coached in how to do these tests in due course. They are both easily bright enough to thrive in the grammar school environment and I will not see them held back because they don't know how to do these sorts of tests.