...to think it really, really counter-productive to coach children for 11+?

[duchesse]

< rant > (sorry)

I'm imagining they will come unstuck faster than a book shelf put up with NoMoreNails if they are not up to it?

Added to which the child may subsequently be dreadfully unhappy and scared to tell its parents.

Also am pissed off that the only grammar school in our area gets filled up by rich Surrey tossers who can afford a second home here ad move into catchment for their over-coached child's secondary education, thereby leaving the rest of us poor devoners to scrounge around for the pennies to send our child to the best not-free school?

That said, we do not yet know that she has not got in, but we do know that she is easily clever enough, as she walked into our local very selective very academic girls' school UNCOACHED and aced her test.

< end rant >

sorry

I think it's far more unfair that children who have been pushed through private primaries then come in and flood the state secondaries. Especially when they work on the basis that they'll all apply to the state grammars and take the private entrance exams and, if they don't get into the free state school, they'll pay for them to go to the private ones which most others can't afford anyway.

No, that is not what I am saying.

well said soup dragon

I am emphatically NOT talking about test familiarisation, which is GOOD thing. Also we had good personal reasons (based around them missing a year of schooling in the UK), for sending our children to the school they went to, which I do not feel the need to justify here.

I am talking about two or three or more private tutor lessons a week, backed up by daily practise, backed up being completely stressed out every single day for years. That is what I mean by coaching.

IF the grammar school favours state school children (and why wouldn't they? I applaud them), then they are not dealing with a level cohort. They are dealing with some very bright children who, as various people have said, will make the grade without effort; some bright children who need help with the format etc of the the tests (available either at school or as an extra), some bright who will not have had this advantage, and some not bright children who will have all sorts of things chucked at them. My question is, how can they then select what they claim to be the top 25% from the cohort presenting itself? I guess my question comes from bewilderment rather than anything.

I reiterate that there are some other schools we could have chosen to send them to if we thought being academically beyond their ability was what we wanted for them. Some are in the state system. Locals may know which ones.

The fact is that your children have effectively received that level of coaching by virtue of their private education. That gives them an unfair advantage over state educated children. Personally I think that state secondaries should maybe give priority to state educated applicants.

I couldn't care less about your reasons for privately educating your children and never asked you to justify them.

That does seem extreme duchesse, poor kids. In extreme cases it's a no win situation - tough on the ones that go through that and then fail, and tough on anyone who passes but finds they can't keep up through senior school. But where do you draw the line between acceptable and not acceptable? There will always be cases where more tuition might be justified so it's difficult to have a blanket ruling. Personally I think it's the system that's wrong.

If you are going to have a selective test (which I'd rather not), you can't stop people coaching for them. So why have these silly reasoning tests - skills that are no use at all. If people are going to practise, make the tests maths and english so that even if you fail at least the skills you've learned will be of benefit.

And this is where I take issue with the whole Private/ state school debate.

My children's school costs LESS than a state school in many areas. It has MORE than its fair share of SEN pupils (dyslexia, Asperger's, autism, EBD). It takes practically every child that walks through the door. Until recently the former owner was subsidising the school from his own pocket (ie pretty much taking no salary, mrotgaging his house to keep it afloat.) He gave places to children who could not afford to pay fees, he gave heavy discounts to people who were struggling.

He did/ does all this because he has an ideal of what a school should do for children (and let me tell you it does NOT include carpet-bomb testing). He has done it for over 30 years, and has a very great number of success stories. He can count on the fingers of one the children has has failed to help, or who had to be asked to leave (for violence usually, and usually they came after being removed from a state school).

Most of the children in the school are state school refugees. Hardly any have not been to state school. Many arrive with poor standards of reading and writing that their parents are delighted that after a scant few weeks in the schools, they can actually write in sentences.

I really take issue with the assumption that ALL private schools are a) the same and b) unfairly biased vs state school.

In many many ways, the school my children attended is MORE inclusive than the state schools they've been to, and the ones they might have attended (ie Colyton).

So please don't patronise me, SoupDragon, or make value judgments about our schooling decisions, when you actually know nothing about them, and are just reacting in a knee jerk way.

PS: I can post the web address on here if you want to see the school. I will NEVER publicise it enough.

Oh what the heck:

www.bendarroch.co.uk

oh I do love the look of that school. If we were in East Devon we'd be there

duchesse, you dcs school sounds lovely. Sadly people generally will lump all private schools in one category though and too often in a grammar area that category is 'crammer'. Even though yours is plainly not, children there have still had more advantage than children from a run-of-the-mill state primary so you are not getting a level playing field when it comes to secondary selection and you never will.

It's a very Mumsnet school, Yurt.

littleshebear - did yours go to state primary? When were they tutored from? We are in Trafford too - kids are at excellent state primary (eldest only in yr 2 so 11+ a way off yet but just interested).

I went to girls grammar in Trafford so I know them well!

littleshebear - sorry, me again, ds1 is at top of his class (top set for maths and also for literacy) - he did SATS papers when he was about half way through yr 1 (this May it's 'real SATs' time!) so I'm not concerned about his ability. I'm guessing just a bit of practice/familiarisation will be enough for him (though possibly too early to tell). Ds2 it's too early to say as he's only in reception.

oh now that puts me off duchesse!

oh dear, what did I say?

I meant that it is quite an individual school, which many of the inhabitants of MN seem to be. A bit bloody-minded. All the other parents there are lovely, or bats, or bats and lovely, and their kids are invariably a delight to talk to, even the difficult ones (and believe me, there are quite a few- given their individual parents...)

Message withdrawn

And we have THE best one in the country. That is probably why. I wish I were using hyperbole when I said Kent and Birmingham.

sorry elphbaba, tidying up! They went to state primary. Got ds1 a tutor from Jan of yr 5 but exams were in novemeber then. Started dd1 in Sept of yr 5 - exams are now Sept yr 6.You may well have gone to same school as dd!All a bit weird for me as i went to a comp down south as`did DH.

You don't have to say where your dd goes, but I went to AGGS! Would like the boys to go to the boys' school.

She goes to AGGS and loves it. My son goes to the boys' school and I am really happy with it - it's quite a lot more laid back than the girls' school! I would really recommend it, not just for the academic side.

It is only fair to do a few practise papers so that they are familiar with the type of questioning but I know children you have been coached and coached and they got through when they are really not up to it. They are OK at the start but towards the end of year 7 they start to run into difficulties.I know some who have had to have extra lessons in the Grammar School to get them up to scratch. They shouldn't be there if the need extra help IMO.Children who should be there wouldn't need more than to be shown the type of questions to expect.

littleshebear - my brothers went to the boys' school, albeit back in the 1980s! I so want my boys to go there - like you say, not just for the academic side.

We must live close then!

Duchess, am confused - is your gripe about coaching or about Surrey people? Or about people buying scond homes in Devon? Surely not only Surrey people who coach?
Find it a real eye-opener that Surrey people go te troubnle of buying a house in Devon to get their kids into a school there. Do they then migrate from Surrey for term time and them move back to Surrey for hols (ie like normal second-homers but in reverse?). Or do they move form Surrey to live fuill=time in Devon - which presumably then makes them Devon people?

I am not patronising you, Duchesse, I have a different opinion to yours and it is equally valid.

Private schools are unfairly biased. How can they not be? Unless they have classes of 30 pupils with a single teacher of course.

State school refugees who miraculously start writing in sentences having attended a private school for a few weeks...? Will that be because they are taught in the same way that the children you complain about are taught to pass entrance exams? Surely if they were bright enough they would learn anyway by your reasoning. I do no understand quite how a child relying on their private schooling is so different from one relying on their coaching.

"My children's school costs LESS than a state school in many areas" Less than free?? I'm not entirely sure I understand.

You also object to "rich Surrey tossers" filling up your precious state grammar, well I object to rich Private tossers filling them up ours.

Go Soupy!