AIBU to ask how do you manage it all if you work full time and have kids?

[dillydally24]

I have two DC (both under three), work full time in a 50-60 hour a week senior role and have no time for anything. I have a lot of help - a full time nanny and a cleaner who comes twice a week - but our house is often a bit of a tip and I never do anything for myself. My DH helps out, but his work is more demanding than mine, so he doesn't make a huge impact. We also have a dog and a house renovation in the go. If you work full time and have young kids, how on earth do you manage it?! Any tips are gladly received. It is this just the way it is for the next few years while the kids are young...?

If you can’t manage with a nanny and a cleaner then I would suggest that you have a look at your priorities as a family and make some decisions.
in our household ( no nanny, juggling with nursery or childminder) we decided that both of us couldn’t work fully time. Or we could, but we’d never see our kids.
I worked 4 days, with flexibility so that our kids weren’t in wrap around care all day. DW asked for flex working though worked FT.

Do you need the money of 2 x FT salaries?
is it just to pay the nanny??
are you missing out in your kids childhoods?
Is it worth it? Not having enough time? Always being tired?

Work will always be there. It will never go away…

‘Sort of. I don't want to be too specific in case it's outing, but he's in a role where people think nothing of sending work through at 11pm on a Friday night and expecting it to be turned around by Monday morning.’

In which case he needs to put some boundaries and expectations in place.

You need more help…

We have a nanny and housekeeper who can house ‘admin’, and will cook some simple meals for us if we need them

a Peloton for exercise when we can’t get out to the gym or for a run (and a trainer that comes to the house for DH)

lean into eating simple meals in the week rather than stress out with cooking

and not something we do, but some friends swear by it… they get their nanny to do a Saturday morning once a month to give them half a day to themselves to get on top of admin, or have brunch together or sort out jobs around the house or do anything that can be done better without 3 kids in tow
and the kids love it because the nanny takes them somewhere fun and gives them ice cream

basically it’s a combination of ‘throw money at the problem’ and simplifying life

Haha, it doesn’t work like that in the real world

You take the job and the salary with the full expectation that you have to work late and work weekends

its not a lack of boundaries, it’s that the world doesn’t only work 9-5 UK time, and many roles expect a substantial amount of work outside those hours
If you say you’re not going to do it, you’re out of a job

Agree with posters saying you should be getting more help - your nanny working 8-6 isn't enough. Can she do more hours or you get an evening nanny to take on a few hours in the evening and do dinner, bath etc? Ditto, can your cleaner do more eg a few loads of washing or whatever else is needed.

I work with lots of lawyers, bankers, consultants. It's interesting how ALL the women have times in their diaries that are inviolate for children/home stuff and yet very few of the men. Drives me crazy. But your DH absolutely can take on some. Even if it's just that on Monday and Thursday mornings he does the breakfast/handover NO MATTER WHAT. My sister has insisted on this with her DH and while of course, in the beginning it was all "but I couldn't possibly" she is the one with the bigger job and the one that actually involves a lot of interaction with people. It's just the default male assumption that they never have to compromise on this stuff. That needs to be nipped in the bud.

In part, it's about freeing you up so that you don't constantly feel like you're rushing from one thing to the next with a strict deadline in every case.

Buy in more help perhaps? Eg a live in nanny, ask your current nanny to do extra hours, a housekeeper, gardener, send out ironing and bedding, ask your cleaner to come daily. Get Gusto/Hello Fresh/ Cook for evening meals. Do what you can to simplify your life.

Whilst your dc are young you may have to outsource a lot more jobs. This can then be scaled back as they get older. Eg your nanny could double up as your housekeeper. Etc.

Haha, it doesn’t work like that in the real world

You take the job and the salary with the full expectation that you have to work late and work weekends

its not a lack of boundaries, it’s that the world doesn’t only work 9-5 UK time, and many roles expect a substantial amount of work outside those hours

If you say you’re not going to do it, you’re out of a job

Absolutely this. I used to describe it as more than job. They expect it you to live it. To live like it is your priority.

i stepped away from it. That was the only way to regain some balance. I missed my girls and the relentless stress was unbearable.

I used to work those hours as a FT teacher before kids, but when I had DD1 I requested PT as I knew with a child it would be unsustainable. We also couldn't afford any help with both of us on FT salaries, so me going PT was a no brainer. Even if we did have help in, I still wouldn't want to work FT. Way too stressful (we now have 2 DDs). Is there any way you could go PT, or reduce your hours? I feel for you OP, it must be really difficult juggling everything.

It’s a while ago.

I had a longish commute worked FT and DH had many overseas trips for a decade.

I had a cleaner and a gardener. Though DH was away maybe a third of the year when he was there it was a definite 50/50:split. I remember there was a huge amount of weddings in that decade, we declined a couple as we didn’t want the hassle. We did what we wanted socially and not what was expected.

I remember I used to use my facial cleansing wipe in the morning to wipe round the bathroom sink. When cooking dinner I would make lunch for work at the same time. I ordered my food shop online. Food wise we eat mainly Chinese food at home, I had a rice cooker and can make food very quickly. When we have English food it was very much a one pot meal that got put in the oven or slow cooker.

Its hard to explain but for me it was mind over matter. Plus it was all about the money, I grew up poor and the absolute fear of being hungry always drove me.

I am retired now, I take great pleasure in having time to tend my own garden. This time will pass, those years were crazy but they end and life develops in to something else.

I should add I didn’t have email till 1994 and back then almost no one had mobile phones. Though work has always been taken home the capacity to have instant requests online and be available 24/7 is an absolute scourge for home life.

‘Throwing more money at it’ . Get nanny to do more. Get a housekeeper. Get nanny to do Saturday mornings.
Sort of a solution isn’t it?
But not one where your children get the one thing they actually want and need from you - your time and attention.Your DHs time and attention.
You can give them as much ‘stuff’ as you want. New clothes, toys, bikes. Give them a nanny. Give them tennis and riding lessons, private tutoring, put them in private school. Boarding school when they’re old enough. What they actually want and need is your time.
it won’t get easier as they get older BTW. Little kids have little kid problems, big kids have big kid problems and nanny won’t be there when they’re older.

Thanks, everyone, for your helpful and supportive responses. Let me try to address them…

Some suggested that I try to find more time for myself by setting firmer boundaries at work or going part time. I have considered this before now, but I think it’s not a realistic option. I am near the top of my profession in a highly-paid, high-prestige role (I’m not bragging, just setting context) and, understandably, people demand a lot of you in that role. I have to constantly demonstrate my worth and it is not possible to do that working two thirds of the hours of my peers. Of course, I could take a lesser role, but too much of my self esteem and identify is bound up in my work for me to be happy doing that. Also, ultimately, I enjoy my work and the financial independence that goes with it.

Others have suggested that I outsource more. I have felt some shame around outsourcing (don’t ask me why, I know it’s stupid), but your responses have helped me get a new perspective on this. I should and will get some more help e.g., I could get our nanny to buy food and clothes for our DCs (I do this currently, but she would do a better job of it than me), I could ask our cleaner to do more hours, and I can get some gardeners to take care of the garden (currently, I do it myself). I feel a bit silly for not having done this already, but I have always felt that I am being a bit of a princess by outsourcing and that everyone else seems to manage without doing it, so why can’t I. It’s clear to me from your responses that this isn’t the case, so thank you for that.

Lastly, the thorny issue of getting my DH to do more. I hear you on this and I know it’s something I need to tackle. His job is extremely stressful and demanding, far more so than mine, but I think he could be doing more at the margin. The problem is it’s hard to raise this with him without him getting defensive. I think, for now, I’ll take one thing at a time and prioritise getting more outsourced help. Then, in time, I can try to get DH more involved. If anyone has had success on that front, do tell me your secret!

@Ahgoonyegirlye Piling shame on women who are trying their very best to juggle careers and children is pretty low. If you don't have any helpful, practical suggestions, then I suggest you go elsewhere.

Thank you. I found this really helpful.

I honestly can’t understand people - men and women- who feel their self worth is more wrapped up in their work, and praise and respect from the strangers that they work with than anything else. I feel for kids who’s parents outsource their care and needs.
I work with many, many people who went to boarding schools, had nannies etc and I think it’s telling that most of them have chosen a completely different parenting approach, despite our ( demanding) profession.

Lots of people choose lifestyles I don’t understand or wouldn’t choose for myself. But that’s not the subject of this thread or that helpful in resolving the OP’s issues.

I second the recommendation for the Laura Vanderkamm book. I read it at a real low point when I was seriously considering giving up work and it really helped me. Make sure your DH reads it too!

Just another voice for outsource, outsource, outsource! And don’t compare yourself to your friends who don’t work FT. I don’t know what it’s like in your social circle, but I know very few mothers in full-time work and it can feel very isolating sometimes.

Also, as your children get older and go to school, research holiday clubs etc well in advance. We’ve now got a couple which we can book as soon as booking opens, and know that the children will be happy there, which is hugely helpful.

I work full time but split the kids 50:50 with my ex. They are teens now and they help out a lot. When they were small my exp
And I were together and he did the cleaning and I did the cooking

I outsource the same as you - (after school) nanny + cleaner. But why is your house a tip if you've got a full time nanny and cleaner twice per week? The nanny should be clearing away anything child related and the cleaner keeps on top of dusty and grubby finger marks.

Lastly, the thorny issue of getting my DH to do more. I hear you on this and I know it’s something I need to tackle. His job is extremely stressful and demanding, far more so than mine, but I think he could be doing more at the margin. The problem is it’s hard to raise this with him without him getting defensive.

I went through all of this and the only way to change anything was to be quite clear that I was nearly broken. DH was convinced he had life much harder because he was always working but oblivious to everything I was doing. When he wasn’t working he was expecting to have downtime but when you have small children, it doesn’t work like that.

Ultimately DH was defensive when I raised it because ultimately he had something to defend; he wasn’t pulling his weight with the children he chose to have. I’d been very upfront before we had them that I expected him to pull his weight and he wasn’t upholding his part of the deal. For us this meant he needed to get a new job with less travel (and happily more money). For your DH this may mean clearer boundaries or sacrificing his downtime so you can have yours.

Interestingly I was having this conversation with my cousin and his wife. She has the bigger job (partnership track with a city law firm) and he has the still demanding but step down role. But she would never leave all the nursery runs to him because she recognises that she has more flexibility and can do more when work is quiet so he can pick up the slack when she’s busy.

Others have suggested that I outsource more. I have felt some shame around outsourcing (don’t ask me why, I know it’s stupid), but your responses have helped me get a new perspective on this. I should and will get some more help e.g., I could get our nanny to buy food and clothes for our DCs (I do this currently, but she would do a better job of it than me), I could ask our cleaner to do more hours, and I can get some gardeners to take care of the garden (currently, I do it myself). I feel a bit silly for not having done this already, but I have always felt that I am being a bit of a princess by outsourcing and that everyone else seems to manage without doing it, so why can’t I. It’s clear to me from your responses that this isn’t the case, so thank you for that.

I think this is very very interesting. I also think it's a uniquely female issue. If anything, I remember listening to bankers at work talk and they seemed to take great pride in referring to their "staff", almost boasting. I assume it's part of showing how successful and wealthy you are if you can afford and need such things. You obviously don't need to do the boasting part but definitely take the practical part of accepting this is the nature of things.

And to posters saying the children suffer blah blah blah. Please go away. Why shouldn't OP continue in a job she is good at and enjoys and that makes her feel fulfilled? In fact, I think highly successful women are usually highly engaged with their children - they are good at being 100% present when they need to, are used to being effective and proactive and this all feeds into the DC. A good friend told me her nanny for her slightly older children is MOST useful because she does homework with the DC which means my friend can spend her time enjoying her time with them, not fighting about maths times tables!

OP do what you have to do. Outsourcing more is the opposite of princessy. At work if you were presented with this situation what would advise the strategy to be?

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be continue until you have a breakdown.

And if the house is messy even with a cleaner - then you need to chuck stuff out! Get rid and then there's more space and time.

I know you have very little spare time but check out the podcast a slob comes clean. She has transformed our lives.

I don't know if this will help, but it's something DH and I have done multiple times over the years. It's a good way of discussing 'doing more' without confrontation or suggesting they don't help enough.

Together make a list of all the jobs that need to be done to run the house and care for the kids. Include in self care activities for you both, things you'd like the time to do.

Together go through and decide what can be outsourced.

With what is left, decide together who will do them. Aim for about a 50/50 split considering time and effort to do the job.

Agree to not make the other person's job harder. That means picking up after yourself, not asking for an item of clothing that needs washing on the day you want to wear it etc.

Finally agree a plan for weekends that means you both get some down time. That will mean him being in sole charge of the kids for some time. He can do it, he's their dad.

I'm not sure I agree with people who say you can't do it all because you do get a lot of help. This won't last forever. You just need to be mega organised.