To disagree with the statement "the other woman owes you nothing"

[Sarahcoggles]

I see this time and again on MN.
Woman posts that husband is having an affair. She hates the OW and is very angry with her, as well as being angry with husband of course.
Then a load of posters pile in saying she should direct all her anger at husband, as he was the only one who owed her anything. The OW owed her nothing, so she shouldn't be angry with her.

I think that's wrong. We all owe our fellow human beings respect and courtesy. If I bump someone's car in a car park I should leave them a note. I don't owe them anything, I never promised I wouldn't bump into their car, they didn't put their trust in me not to bump into their car , I never promised to pay for any damage that I might do to their car. They don't even know me. But it's still my fault, my carelessness, and common courtesy dictates that I should leave a note and be held accountable.

Why is it perfectly fine to have a relationship with someone else's husband, knowing that you're going to hurt that person, just because they're a stranger and you never promised you wouldn't shag their husband?

Personally I think both parties are equally to blame, just in different ways.

OW's choices are nothing to do with the cheating spouse. OW is making a shit choice because she is choosing to lust after a cheating liar. Or maybe she just likes the sex and attention.

You could put a parade of available men before me and I still wouldn't cheat on my DH. I expect the same commitment from him. You can't blame the temptation.

Nosefratu, your take on feminism is the reason so many women shun it. You don't seem to understand patriarchy, misogyny and morality.

The husband owes the wife the promises he made when marrying. And not be a cheating dirty bastard.

The other woman owes it to the wife to not be cruel and cheap and sleep with a married man. Tell him to separate from his wife and come back if mutual feelings are there.

Unfortunately many people are selfish arseholes.

I think the husband is to blame. If it wasn't the OW, it would just be someone else. He is the one in the relationship and he is the one who made promises.

However, a twinge of me thinks the other woman or man, often has the least to lose and the most to gain. Sometimes a family breaks up because of their actions, and their life doesn't change at all. Maybe they end up hurt too, I'm not sure. It's all quite low risk for them.

But yeah, ultimately if your partner cheats, the onus is on your partner. I do find it strange when all the anger is directed at the OW, when she isn't the person who betrayed you.

I wouldn't go anywhere near a married man, however I disagree with the majority about 'equal blame'. OW is not cheating, she is not breaking any promises, she is not responsible for anyone's children. And let's remember, most men probably lie to her about ' we grew apart/we just stay together for kids/she doesn't under me/we stopped having sex 300 years ago'.
Every time I read a thread here about a poor wife perusing a vengeance on OW with not a drop of dignity left it makes me feel sad for the wife. Why call, chase, demand answers, harrass a person who doesn't owe you anything and probably won't give you any truthfull answers. Sometimes it feels these wives somehow direct most anger towards OW rather than their own husband.

I think you're missing the point.
My issue is that it's wrong to say the OW is blameless because she has no obligation to give a shit about the people she hurts, because she never promised not to. I'm arguing that you shouldn't need to promise not to hurt people. You should just instinctively avoid doing it.

However, I'd run a mile if a man told me he was already married (and have done!). Because the idea that my actions could bring a kid's world crashing down, just kinda disgusts me and I'd never forgive myself. It's heartless, especially with kids involved.

Also, I'm high maintenance as f and need quite a bit of quality time and attention, and I won't compete with someone else because I'm too proud. So really I'd be a very unhappy other woman I imagine!!!

@Sarahcoggles

Yes it is all on him.

If your DP cheated and you found out right now, what is you think the OW would owe you?

Not saying OW wouldn’t be in the wrong, be just as bad as him, but she owes you nothing.
If it wasn’t her it would be another woman, same goes for her, she’s messing with her own life messing with a married man, no respecting herself at all.
But still you wouldn’t be her responsibility, if she’s that type of woman then that’s on her, it would still be your husband to blame cos if he let another into your marriage, it’s him that is responsible.. the OW is irrelevant there could be a different one every week.

I think you're missing the point.
My issue is that it's wrong to say the OW is blameless because she has no obligation to give a shit about the people she hurts, because she never promised not to. I'm arguing that you shouldn't need to promise not to hurt people. You should just instinctively avoid doing it.

I think where you fall down is by saying they are equally to blame. I don't think many would feel the need to defend the OW not being at fault if you didn't say that. Do you not think there is a massive difference between how to blame they are?

And if not, why not?

I think the cheating husband is definitely primarily the person in the wrong. But that does not entirely absolve the OW in what she is doing. I think she is not "accountable" to the wife, more she is accountable to herself and society to not stoop so low. It is like taking someone's seconds, it reminds me of scavengers.

Thing is, it is often a particular type of personality which goes for married men - often desperately naieve, living in a fantasy world, know how to "press the right buttons" with the married man in question and does not hold back in doing exactly that, entirely 100% complicit in the lies she hears or tells the married man to get herself into the position that she is having an affair with him. I think often, if she has any kind of a conscience (and being able to do that in the first place strongly suggests she has no conscience) she is adept and expert at immediately dismissing all and any kind of snippet of guilt she might momentarily feel. In other words she is able without blinking an eye to buy into the "story" of why she ended up with this married man and why it was the right thing to do (as does the cheating husband).

Often OW are insecure, super competitive and quite mercenary about why they are attracted to the married man in the first place (eg perceptions of money, status, can offer her the type of life she aspires to on a plate because he is already doing all that with his wife and she sees it as the a kind of "ladder" in a game of snakes and ladders which is her romantic life and where she sees herself in the game of love).

In summary, cold and calculating.
And I also think that children in the primary relationship are the biggest sign of how cold the OW is - if she knows there are young children and goes ahead anyway. Because you could say about a situation with no children "well they were all grown ups and that is life" but to knowingly make a bid for a husband and father of young children is premeditating and machiavellian.
I agree with a previous poster that they (the ex husband and the OW) probably deserve each other and will be a good match in that sense.

Ah, it's the old you're not feministing right, gotcha. You lot carry on convincing yourself that the jezebels are to blame for Nigel being unable to keep it in his pants.

My point is not that OW lured them, just that it’s a shitty thing to do to a family. I firmly blame the man too

I think I owe even complete strangers enough not to knowingly fuck their partners.

The ultimate blame lies in the married affair partner. They're the ones who've made the decision to cheat on their partners, ruin their marriage and break up their family. No OW/OM is responsible for that decision or (excepting cases of blackmail, coercion etc) forced them to make it. However, they are responsible for their own behaviour and to knowingly participate in this scenario - knowing the effects it will likely have on other people - is a fairly terrible thing to do.

Get women to blame other women for men cheating.

Unfortunately it does take a second party. And literally no one has said the husband isn’t at fault or even more at fault.
But no one single should be getting involved with someone who’s married. It’s rude if nothing else.

Its pretty misogynist for women to assume they have a better chance with a bloke than the woman he’s made a commitment to.
It may or may not be true but it’s really not for the OW to find out. When he’s single is the time to give it a shot.

I think that getting involved with someone you know to be in a relationship is morally reprehensible. It doesn’t matter if it’s a fling or whether it starts as a friendship and tips over into an emotional affair. At some point, the ow or om makes a decision to continue on the path they’re on, knowing that they’re helping a spouse to cause pain and upset to their family, just for a couple of hours of excitement each week. And that makes them a level of selfish that you don’t often find in a decent person.

Having said that, we stood in a church and promised each other that we would forsake all others. If my DH cheats on me, it is him who has broken his promise to me. So while another woman would have my contempt for being such a shitty person, my DH would have the blame if he cheated. It doesn’t matter what any woman does or says to attract him. She can’t steal him or force him to meet up with her unless he wants to.

Its a pendulum swing from the often held view that the OW carries the greater blame. Women who want to stay with cheating men and excuse them often scapegoat the OW and its often said to redress an element of that.

I think anger at the OW is often an easier outlet and emotion than the raw betrayal of a cheating spouse. A lot of anger that should be directed at the cheater gets directed at the OW/OM instead.

Obviously anyone having an affair with a married man or woman deserves the injured party's anger.

But it's not even close to the betrayal of the cheating spouse. That person built a life with you, perhaps had kids.with you, is tied up with you financially, emotionally and with wider family... It's a horrendous thing to do to the person you made a vow to. Not to mention the betrayal of the dc.

Of course the cheating spouse should be the main target of anger.

I agree 100%

Yes your husband should take responsibility and ultimately is the one who made vows to you..

However, if a woman knows a man is married and still has an affair with him knowing this then she is as bad as he is.

Yes men lie but a lot of woman know a man is married, has children etc and still get involved
What sort of person even does that? A man could spin me any lie but any sign of wife, partner or children and its a no thank you from me. I wouldn't ever do that to another person.

I’ve been a OW for 3 years. We are both to blame in different ways.

I made a choice to enter into a relationship with someone I know to be married. He made a choice to break his vows. We both broke different rules of conduct and he broke promises. I wouldn’t expect to walk away blameless, just in a different way to him.

For what it’s worth. My (ex) husband cheated on me. I left him the same day. She was inconsequential to me, she could have been anyone. He cheated because of the issues between us and the person he was. He’s been married for 12 years now and is faithful, he cheated numerous times that I now know of when we were together.

I knew OW well, considered her a friend. When I had my now teen dd she held her and cooed over her knowing she’d already started sleeping with my ex . Instead of coming home to his wife and newborn and our other children he was shagging her in his office . I do still despise the woman to this day not because of what she did to me but because of what she did to my dc’s.
I despise him even more because for two years he lied about the affair and instead told our two eldest children that I made his life a misery and that he was trying to be a good husband, he succeeded in driving a huge wedge between me and my now adult daughter who believed his crap and has a close relationship with OW .

its true that most likely they will be spinning horrific lies to the OW , my ex told her he’d been miserable for years, that I was a monster and neglected our children and yelled at him, the reality was he’d been emotionally and financially abusing me fur years and when I finally outed his affair he attached me .
As far as I’m concerned he was a self entitled piece of crap who didn’t care what he put us through and equally so was she for being pathetically naive enough to believe his lies to justify starting an affair with a man with an 8 month pregnant wife - years later
It is easy to feel anger at the other woman but they are either completely self involved and don’t care or have fragile self esteems meaning they value themselves so little they’ll believe that they really are the perfect woman for this poor man who needs freeing from his monster wife.

on the flip side .. She did me a favour !

I really hate it when people say that. It's utter bollocks. OW in my case positively revelled in it, was utterly vile, horribly abusive and told me that it was all my own fault my husband had left to be with her. She'd been widowed for a very short time and felt "entitled to happiness". She was vile to my ASD child, she knew we were married, she knew we had a toddler with SEN. She's totally to blame, equally with him.

You don't insert yourself into a marriage, cause untold destruction and then get to say "it's nothing to do with me, he's to blame".

Igotexcuses

"He cheated because of the issues between us and the person he was. He’s been married for 12 years now and is faithful, he cheated numerous times that I now know of when we were together."

How on earth do you know that your ex husband is faithful to his new wife? What a bizarre thing to say!

I completely agree that in cases where the OW is aware the man is married and/or has children then she shoulders some of the blame.

When my ex cheated, she knew he had a newborn baby and partner at home. They met on the tube after a night out and it took them both less than 10 minutes to decide to get a hotel for the night. He told her from the start he was in a relationship but she didn't care. She was on his Facebook from that night and saw the pictures of our first Christmas as a family of 3 and all the pictures we shared of newborn DD. When I discovered the messages a few weeks later I kicked him out of our flat that day and moved back home with DD the next day. He went straight to her and they were married and pregnant within 12 months. I'll admit I messaged her in my hormonal post baby anger and she started being apologetic and saying how broken she was (she'd been in a relationship for 16 years and accepted his offer of marriage after she started sleeping with my ex) and then started saying how much better she was for him and that she loved him like I never could and that she decided to make a play for him and "won" him from me. Well she won a real prize, the marriage lasted a year before she discovered him cheating and divorced him. I hated them both and blamed them both. Me laying some of the blame at her feet took nothing away from the anger and betrayal I felt towards him. She'd behaved appallingly and I didn't see why she should get to waltz off scott free while my life was in ruins. I will never regret confronting her.

Looking back on it now, I feel no anger towards her. Or him really, they're both irrelevant. She played a stupid game and won a stupid prize and got exactly what she deserved. However, I will always maintain that it takes 2 to tango.

@Nosefrate, no, I'm just not arguing with stupid.