To disagree with the statement "the other woman owes you nothing"

[Sarahcoggles]

I see this time and again on MN.
Woman posts that husband is having an affair. She hates the OW and is very angry with her, as well as being angry with husband of course.
Then a load of posters pile in saying she should direct all her anger at husband, as he was the only one who owed her anything. The OW owed her nothing, so she shouldn't be angry with her.

I think that's wrong. We all owe our fellow human beings respect and courtesy. If I bump someone's car in a car park I should leave them a note. I don't owe them anything, I never promised I wouldn't bump into their car, they didn't put their trust in me not to bump into their car , I never promised to pay for any damage that I might do to their car. They don't even know me. But it's still my fault, my carelessness, and common courtesy dictates that I should leave a note and be held accountable.

Why is it perfectly fine to have a relationship with someone else's husband, knowing that you're going to hurt that person, just because they're a stranger and you never promised you wouldn't shag their husband?

Personally I think both parties are equally to blame, just in different ways.

I did do this, having grown up in a family with two parents who did not share the same moral compass with each other, and having seen the trauma it caused.

But people are affected by this kind of thing even outside their own marriages. Children, parents, brothers and sisters, friends etc.

Several posters on this thread have said, and I agree with them, that they wouldn't want to be friends with someone who was an OW/OM. Just like many people might not want to be friends with someone who drinks and drives, or goes fox hunting, or protests outside abortion clinics - you don't have to be a fox or having an abortion to find that behaviour repugnant.

It isn't just about not being cheated on personally. It says something about what that person is like, and what their values are. That matters to me even if it's not me being cheated on.

It's not about excusing men, or women, or whatever. It's about fundamental decency in the way we behave towards other people.

Several posters on this thread have said, and I agree with them, that they wouldn't want to be friends with someone who was an OW/OM.

Well that's another matter. Of course you can refuse your friendship on any grounds you like. I certainly don't equate having legal consensual sex with blood sports, drink driving, forced birth and the rest but if you do, you're entitled to live your life accordingly.

It doesn't change the fact that a married person can't blame other people when they fail in their promise.

If OW doesn't know that the man is married, no blame. If she then finds out that he is then she is knowingly doing wrong. The man is obviously to blame too both for the infidelity and the lies he told her, although I'd understand that it is not as bad as second scenario
If the OW knows he is married then she is to blame as much as the man, for being a shitty immoral human being, but obviously the man is still to blame. If the ow has actually been pursuing ueing the man even more blame on her
The woman my now ex went off with I learned had been pursuing him, despite knowing me for 20 years, and knowing that he was married and that we had children
Its a different kind of blame, ex was the one who made the commitment but she was a willing accomplice. Joint enterprise and all that .
I learned that he had tried it on in the past with other women, who had not wanted anything to do with a married man, but she was the first one to take him up.on that
Until a man is actually divorced he is married, if he says he is separated it probably means he is still living with his wife and enjoying having her life admin skills and she probably doesn't know that she is supposedly separated

Not necessarily. Plenty of women go after married men, KNOWING they’re married.

I agree with you OP, 100%.

No, it doesn't, and I never said it did.

You keep saying that I'm trying to shift blame from the (theoretical) husband to the (theoretical) OW. I'm not. If my husband cheated on me, it would be 100% his fault.

But the OW would also have done a bad thing, and played her part in adding to the sum of human misery.

Ditto exactly the same if the sexes were reversed. It would be totally my fault if I cheated on him, and the OM/OW would be a person doing a (IMO) bad, immoral, cruel and damaging thing.

You keep saying sex within the context of an affair is 'legal and consensual'. No one has said it's not legal or consensual. The issue is that both people participating in an affair are choosing to do something which causes pain and grief to a third party. The fact that only one of those two people made a promise doesn't mean that the other one isn't doing something that many people consider to be wrong. Blame isn't a zero sum game.

Drink driving, fox hunting, anti-abortion protesting, having an affair with someone who is cheating on their partner - everyone will have their own individual scale of values and will feel differently about which of those they consider worse than others. That's what I mean about subjective moral judgements.

You presumably understand that many people will be repulsed by an anti-abortion protest, and will believe that the protestors are morally wrong and cruel, even if those people are not themselves pregnant. You don't have to be directly affected by something to make a judgement on the morality of it, and the character of someone doing it.

No, it doesn't, and I never said it did.

I'm afraid that numerous lengthy posts about moral and social contracts and indirect relationships and so on, including this very post which is all the same stuff, mean you have said that. Rather a few times. If you do agree that a cheater shouldn't be making these same arguments to dilute their responsibility, then one has to wonder why you keep making them yourself.

But I'm certainly not going to argue that you have to be friends with an OW/OM or cheater, because of course you don't. The argument's thick enough without going into why an affair isn't like tearing a woodland creature to pieces or forcing women to have babies against their will. If you think it is, you're entitled to live accordingly.

We all have choices in the the people we chose to respect in life, we all do it every day, our values, our ethics, the politics we adhere to, we all do it.

That's fine if you see om and ow as blameless, that is your stance but what you are not entitled to do is take away peoples views and opinions of those om and ow.

Some may wish to admire them and some may wish to admonish them, horses for courses, regardless of whether you have been an om or ow if you have views that vindicate them of all responsibilty then it is entirely the perogative of men and women to castigate those who chose to defend them or not.
We all are entitled to align ourselves to different causes, this particular cause just happens to involve the pain of unsuspecting victims whether they be male or female, no difference, sexism and mysogyny doesn't come into it.

Morally from a personal stance I dislike the morals of ow and om, no sexism involved both sexes act callously, I also dislike the cheating partners, the husbands or wives, again very questionable morals.
You cannot chose for others what morals are aceptable and if this was a battle in society it's clear the quest of making an om or ow become more morally aceptable is a battle that never seems to have been won over since the dawn of time.

I chose who I believe are morally bankrupt, it it not for others to tell me who I find lacking in morals.
There are reasons and many of them, and if there are punishments by way of being ostracised by civilised society then it is for the individual to chose whether their reputation is warranted and their punishments deserving.

You cannot police people's morals or feelings, we all have our different standards.

You've demonstrated that you're an infantile bully

If you think my posts are abusive, report them.

If you're just angry because they've shown up your sexism and misogyny, keep on name calling and ranting.

That's fine if you see om and ow as blameless, that is your stance but what you are not entitled to do is take away peoples views and opinions of those om and ow.Nobody has done this. Why do so many people on here think that counter argument is akin to censorship? Who's really trying to silence people with this ridiculous claim?

If two or more people are convicted of e.g. an armed robbery, they don't get reduced sentences. Blame/responsibility is not divided up or 'diluted'.

Two or more people can both/all have done something wrong. They can both/all be held fully responsible for their own actions.

To say that the OW/OM has done something wrong does not 'dilute' the responsibility of the husband/wife in this situation.

The argument's thick enough without going into why an affair isn't like tearing a woodland creature to pieces or forcing women to have babies against their will.

It's an analogy. These are all actions that people choose to do which harm others, which they could choose not to do, but they prioritise their own immediate wishes over the harm caused to others.

The relevant point was (a) that people have different moral standards, and (b) that you don't have to be directly affected by someone's shitty behaviour to judge them for it.

Why are you so invested in this argument? I've explained my own personal background and why it affects me, as have many other posters. What's in it for you? Don't try to twist this into me "accusing you of being an OW". I'm not. I'm asking you a genuine question. Why does this matter so much to you?

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I would hazard a guess that the person trying to silence people is the one who reported the post above (not mine) and got it removed. It was an articulate and heartfelt post that was critical of your conduct on this thread and your attitude towards other posters, in entirely fair and reasonable terms.

@WineAndCheesePls was entirely justified in what she said, polite and not abusive, and it's a real shame that someone with a thin skin reported it.

Most married men hide the fact they're married or talk shit saying they are separated, waiting on divorce, blah, blah, blah. They are out to deceive both women.
I don't know of any women personally who set out to snare a married man, but l know of lots of married men who were caught out on dating apps etc.
For some women it's easier to point the finger at the OW and blame her than face the fact their husbands are lying lowlife cheats.

I utterly despise people who sleep with other peoples husbands and destroy their childrens lives however not all of us know.
When I met my ex husband he told me he'd been split up from his ex partner (not married) for 6 months. He lived 100 miles away from me so I couldn't check up on him.
I loved him, I believed him and the ex never contacted me even though we had joint friends. Nobody told me.
Turns out he was still living with her when he met me at a festival we were both at. She had no idea he was seeing anyone else and was deeply shocked when she found out.
I didn't find out until 10 years after we were married and that was the end for me. Our whole marriage was based on a lie and I couldn't live with it.

I didn't see the post in question before it was deleted, so I'm unaware of whether it contained the oft-repeated phrase of 'abuse apologism'.

If it did, then the zapping is unsurprising. Then again, there are a large number of posts on this thread in which this silly accusation is being churned out. They are nothing if not repetitious.

The suggestion would be offensive were it not so patently ridiculous as to not merit even taking seriously.

Then we are all happy then, each with our own different viewpoints, two different camps with one camp allowed to critisise om and ow and the 2nd camp advocating their blameless actions.

A different argument could be how those actions of om, ow and the cheating spouses affect those arround them, the consequenses of hurt people, the depressions, the mental breakdowns, the deaths.

We do tend to apply the laws of cause and effect, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, when a betrayed spouse becomes ill or god forbid goes on to do worse, who should we ask to take responsibility, should it be theirs alone, their weakness to accept the betrayal or do we aportion any blame.

Would it be considered bullying to find two people actively trying to destroy another person. Abuse can be seen and not called out on, let alone someone deciding to actively participate in abuse, whether they be male or female.

It's not behaviour that I find pleasant but some actively feel that their own actions have no direct consequenses.
I believe people should monitor their own behaviour and try not to harm others in this world.

I don't think saying people are sexually incontinent is making excuses for them or holding them to a low standard.

If anything it is pointing out an abject failure to meet the most basic requirement

Would the ow and om supporters admit that pain actually exists for the betrayed party whilst their affair is ongoing.

Even if you believe you are not responsible, do you aknowledge that this pain is actually happening and existing for the betrayed. ?

Is it a case of yes I know she is confused, is having her reality distorted, is being lied to on a daily basis and as an entirely innocent paticipant I don't care at all.

Another human's pain is not my concern.

We could all take a view that it's okay to go through life doing whatever we want (so long as there's no specific law against it) and not worrying about who gets hurt in the process. But we'd live in a horrible society if that's what everyone did! I'm sure that in other areas of their lives, ow/om would like to live in a society where other people are decent and choose to help them rather than hinder. If they've ever benefited from someone else's kindness or care, then they owe it to society to not just be a taker, but to pay that human decency forward.

Personally, I think that while the married person is totally responsible for the breaking of the marriage contract, anyone who knowingly aids them in hurting their spouse and kids is a skanky and utterly selfish human being!

For me, gender doesn’t come into it. I think knowing, willing om are just as shitty as knowing, willing ow. We all know that no om/ow has a magical penis or vagina, one that somehow manages to cast an avoidable spell so the poor innocent spouse is forced to fall into/onto it. Infidelity is a choice. But, we also all know that infidelity causes huge amounts of pain. Any fully functioning adult would be hard pressed to deny this - most of us have either been subjected to it, or witnessed the often frankly nuclear fallout from it. I find it hard to fathom how anyone, irrespective of gender, could willingly partake in that. We all have personal responsibility for our own actions. Married or not, causing enormous pain to other people, whether you know them or not, is not ok by me. The guilt and shame I would feel would utterly eclipse any positives I might find in the “relationship”. I also have to actually like a person to have sex with them and I could not like a man who was doing that to his wife. But, that’s my own moral compass and clearly, we are not all the same.
I have known lots of people who’ve had affairs, of both sexes and either the married person or the affair partner. The one thing they all have in common? They are either hugely selfish and entitled, somehow believing they deserve “more” or stunningly lacking in self esteem. If I were ever tempted to have an affair myself or get involved with a married man, I’d be looking at what was lacking in me.

I agree with this in large part.

Life is complicated, of course. For instance when someone tells us their spouse cheated and what a piece of crap the interloper is, we don't hear them fess up to their own domestic abuse or neglect, they are only ever the victim. In those cases the truth might be that the victim is more to blame than the OW or OM

I think @ReneBumsWombats

is on a quest to free om and ow from any kind of blame, whereby the reputation of said om or ow is never questioned or frowned upon.

Blame is a strange creature, it is made of judgements by many but in this case not by law. Society always judges, it always will, that's unfortunate for many ow and om who do not wish to be judged.
But life is not fair and there are many that will take oportunities that others will not, it happens, but what also happens are judgements by people who are not even directly involved, reputations can be damaged for life but it is entirely the om and ow's choice to put themselves in a possition to be judged.

No one forces them to behave in ways that others find repulsive, and they cannot control the revulsion of others by advocating and explaining their supposed blameless behaviour.

Society is an unfortunate court for them, full of passion and sometimes free of reason but it is a chance that they willingly take themselves.

All this arguing and let's face it, there's no justification for it on either side....I think some people just are incapable of self-reflecting or taking responsibility. It's always someone else's fault. Of course the cheating spouse is very much at fault but everyone knows the pain and damage infidelity causes..

Both parties are at fault. It's not complicated and I don't know why some people are wearing themselves out trying to justify/twist things. There's certain things everyone just knows on a gut level and this is one of them. It's not comparable to abortion or fox hunting. That's a desperate stretch!! Lol.

I'm not a 'OW supporter' have never been an OW, and have been cheated on.
Yet I can't get on board with the binary position you describe as its more nuanced than that.
OW will not typically be sitting there imagining some decent, trusting, loving wife and plotting ways of causing her pain.
Far more likely the OWs picture of the primary partner will be that she has been shown by the man she trusts and often loves.
This is likely to include one or more of the following traits:
Disinterested
Unfaithful
Neglectful
Exploitative
Manipulative
Abusive
Gatekeeper of children/finances
As women we are well aware relationships exist where these traits are features, and also that they can be difficult to escape from.
Its not difficult to see how an otherwise decent woman would believe they apply to her psrtners relationship, and be able to legitimise her role as an OW via a combination of naivety and self delusion.
Obviously this is not good behaviour, but its a long way from the stereotype of not caring whose life she wrecks (often she believes the PP isn't interested in the marriage beyond financial or practical purposes) as long as she gets what she wants.
Its also a long way from the behaviour of the cheating partner, who is always acting in full possession of the facts.