To disagree with the statement "the other woman owes you nothing"

[Sarahcoggles]

I see this time and again on MN.
Woman posts that husband is having an affair. She hates the OW and is very angry with her, as well as being angry with husband of course.
Then a load of posters pile in saying she should direct all her anger at husband, as he was the only one who owed her anything. The OW owed her nothing, so she shouldn't be angry with her.

I think that's wrong. We all owe our fellow human beings respect and courtesy. If I bump someone's car in a car park I should leave them a note. I don't owe them anything, I never promised I wouldn't bump into their car, they didn't put their trust in me not to bump into their car , I never promised to pay for any damage that I might do to their car. They don't even know me. But it's still my fault, my carelessness, and common courtesy dictates that I should leave a note and be held accountable.

Why is it perfectly fine to have a relationship with someone else's husband, knowing that you're going to hurt that person, just because they're a stranger and you never promised you wouldn't shag their husband?

Personally I think both parties are equally to blame, just in different ways.

I think you're trying very hard to use feminism and misogyny to establish your argument.

Yes, that's pretty crucial when refusing to hold women responsible for men being shits. Can't avoid it, sorry.

If everyone thought the way you did, women would be more pathetic than ever.

And you complain about misogyny, hmm...

If everyone thought the way I did, married people wouldn't cheat. Or if they did, they'd be held absolutely responsible for it, making them less likely to do it. Sounds a better system to me than upholding two millennia of making women the sexual gatekeepers of shitty men.

Answer me this and bare in mind that at the moment you sound very much like an abuse apologist... given my above example of when this has happened in real life, to a lovely woman, when she was giving birth alone, when OW was with him and encouraging MM to lie to her about where he was, was she not contributing to the pain then? Was her part in actively engaging with what she knew to now be an affair entirely blameless? Did the wife deserve to give birth on her own? I'd love to know as it seems those defending OW are doing it for their own reasons, OW are flawed and nothing to be threatened by or jealous of and the idea of sticking up for them makes a good fit for a faux feminist on their heavily naive soap box.

Answer me this and bare in mind that at the moment you sound very much like an abuse apologist

It's horrible that you think holding men entirely responsible for being shits is abuse apologism.

given my above example of when this has happened in real life, to a lovely woman, when she was giving birth alone, when OW was with him and encouraging MM to lie to her about where he was, was she not contributing to the pain then?

It was entirely on him. She could tell him to act like a shit, doesn't mean he has to be one. He had a wife, a vulnerable family, and he shat all over them. He had all the power.

He's a total shit. And the sooner his wife realises he is a total shit with no excuses, the sooner she'll hopefully find the strength to leave him as he deserves.

But if people like you are around, acting as apologists for him by claiming it wasn't entirely his fault, she's more likely to stick around for more. And with you telling him he wasn't entirely to blame, he's more likely to deliver. Why not? It's the woman's fault! Oh, how men like him love it when women devolve into spitting at each other while he wets his dick...

Honestly, I've heard some shite on here. But the idea that holding a shit man entirely responsible for what he did is apologism, and blaming someone else isn't....

Now perhaps you can answer me this. If you meet a man and he seduces you, and your husband finds out...are you absolutely totally responsible for what you did to your marriage? Or are you going to insist your husband goes after the OM too because he'd be an abuse apologist if he didn't?

I feel exactly the same about the shit you're saying. It wasn't entirely on him. The ending of his marriage and the infidelity was, yes but the pain and mistrust of the female population afterwards wasn't. Part of the reason the wife ended up not eating whilst with parents was because she was so isolated. The pain caused when you can't trust anyone, men and women is incomprehensible and so isolating. You are apologising for the women, essentially saying they can do whatever they like at the expense if another person's emotions, have a fling that means nothing to them but will destroy another human being forever but its okay, they have absolutely no consequence and no judgement on their character because we only blame men in this world I blame both, for being shitty people not for being a man, woman or anything more. They were each individually involved in making a series of choices and actions that led to a devastating outcome. Who on earth do women have left to depend on if this is what they do to eachother? We expect this off of men but not other women and that's the part you're not getting.

I've also been very careful to say that this applies in my view whether the cheating partner is male or female, ditto the person they are cheating with.

The thing you seem not to get is this is a question of morality. It's not objective. It's subjective. In your view the affair partner has done nothing wrong. In my view they have, because I believe we all have a moral responsibility to each other as human beings to avoid taking action that would cause needless harm to another person. Even if we've never met them. Even if we've never promised them anything. Just because it's wrong to be complicit in something that will harm an innocent party purely for our own enjoyment.

You don't subscribe to this view. I acknowledge that. But I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right - I am offering my perspective. You seem to refuse to accept that other people feel differently about this than you do; that doesn't mean they are wrong, it means you have a different opinion. It's a moral question, like vegetarianism or whatever, not a scientific proof.

It doesn't matter how many one-word sentences punctuated with full stops you post, you can't force other people to subscribe to your particular view of this situation, just like no one else can force you to subscribe to theirs. It's not a fight where someone is going to win. It's a difference of opinion.

In every situation I've been involved in, or known of, where a woman has cheated on her partner with another man, the husband/boyfriend has pretty much always gone after the OM. In many cases escalating to physical violence.

I mentioned my serially unfaithful parent earlier. They were unfaithful with a significant number of people, I don't know exactly how many. Some affairs and some much shorter encounters.

Of course I hold my parent 100% responsible for the pain they inflicted on my other parent and for breaking their marriage vows and their promises.

But in terms of the people they cheated with, in my view there is a huge difference between the one-off encounters with people who had no idea about the partner and family at home, and the longer affairs, including the person who actively tried to get my parent to leave and move in with them.

That person individually harmed, or tried to cause harm, to me and my siblings. They actively tried to persuade my parent to leave the family. That was what brought the whole thing crashing down, in fact.

They specifically tried to break up my parents' marriage and to mean that my siblings and I would grow up without one of our parents at home.

Do I have a personal animosity towards random strangers who my parent happened to meet on a night out? No.

Do I hold a grudge against the person who tried to force my parent

Do I have a personal animosity towards random strangers who my parent happened to meet on a night out? No.

Do I hold a grudge against the person who tried to force my parent to leave us? Yes, absolutely. It doesn't exonerate my parent in the slightest to say that this person actively tried to destroy my family and break up my parents' marriage, and that that was a harm that they caused directly to me. I hadn't made any vows either, I had no part in the marriage contract, but they set out to harm me because we were in the way of what they wanted. That's not OK.

The ending of his marriage and the infidelity was, yes but the pain and mistrust of the female population afterwards wasn't.

It's a shame that having been shat upon by a man, she directed her pain and mistrust on women. And sadly, it'll probably hinder her from finding a better man in future. Because she's still looking at women to gatekeep him.

In your view... In my view

In discussion forums like this, it's a given that we are all only sharing our opinions even if we don't begin every sentence with that disclaimer. If you didn't realise that, it's just another thing that's not the fault of another woman.

And here's the kicker:

We expect this off of men but not other women and that's the part you're not getting.

Thank you for finally admitting the sexism, misogyny and double standards that led you to this point of view. You've spent a lot of time skirting round it so I'm glad you finally just came out with it. I completely "get" that this is your outlook, I just reject it for the crap that it is.

You're not presenting your view as just one view. You are absolutely insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

You've quoted me and another poster indiscriminately there, but FWIW, I do not consider men or women differently in this regard. I think anyone involved in a cheating relationship is behaving in a shitty way towards other human beings, and I think less of them for it.

You have spent your entire time on this thread displaying sexism towards men! Hahaha. I'm trying to say both are equally abhorrent in this scenario. You seem to believe that women can do what they want and contribute to the abuse of another woman but its okay, you'll apologise for their behaviour as at the end of the day only the man made the vows so the woman is fine, the abuse doesn't exist.

You're not presenting your view as just one view. You are absolutely insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I'm assuming that everyone reading has the intelligence to understand that this is a philosophical discussion and everything is an opinion. It spoils the rhetoric to repeat it every time and frankly the posts are getting long enough. I've made a social contract with everyone so that they know this.

You've quoted me and another poster indiscriminately there

I know, but you're both singing from the same convoluted song sheet of Emma being responsible for Adam and Mary's marriage and it always comes from the same place. I've never seen long, passionate threads about how important it is to blame OM.

I repeat:

We expect this off of men but not other women

Your misogyny is an absolute gut churning bollock to behold.

First rule of misogyny: 'Women are responsible for what men do'.

Men are frequently given a free pass for behaviour women would be excoriated for. Hence:

We expect this off of men but not other women.

Then what is at fault here is not other women but your own expectation levels. Instead of the usual tactic of blaming women for everything men do, raise your minimum expectations as to male behaviour.

Gatekeeping men's sexual incontinence isn't women's job.

Second rule: Holding a married man entirely responsible for his cheating is sexism against men and abuse apologism.

God, this is ridiculous. What's the point of interacting with someone like that?

Yes I agree OP. I think some women just show their true colours with their attitude to this. Some people are good to their fellow human beings out of common decency and some people are just out for themselves and are nice to people that know them...cause of heartless self interest.

I wouldn't say the OW is totally free of any wrongdoing (assuming she knew the true circumstances) but I don't think she comes anywhere even close to being equally to blame. The amount a person's spouse is responsible for cheating on them is astronomically bigger.

Haven’t read the whole thread but agree with this.

I can see why cheated upon spouses might want to blame the OW or OM more than or as much as their beloved spouse. But this is not rational. At the end of the day the cheating spouse has done far worse because he/she has broken vows and hurt and lied to someone they supposedly love.

I don’t think the affair partner is blameless (unless they genuinely didn’t know of or suspect the marriage). It’s not ok to contribute to the wrecking of a life, even a stranger’s life. But the duties we owe to strangers are nowhere near what we owe to our own spouse and children. So they’re certainly a lot less to blame than the cheating spouse.

It's entirely true, I do not expect women whom I socialise with and share my vulnerability with to treat me in this way. We all know how hard it is to be a woman. It's fuck all to do with sexism and you know it but you also know I'm right, you're you're abuse apologist and sexism is all you can spout to overshadow this truth. It's no different to suggesting that men generally are closer to men because they have experienced what it is to be a man. Therefore I do not expect another woman who could easily put themselves in my shoes to ever treat me in a way that they know could hurt. I really worry for how you must treat others in day to day life, have you a reason for such a lack of empathy? You still haven't explained why it is you think women are not to blame ASWELL as men - not instead of, not more than but as well as...

I completely agree, there are some horrendously selfish people out there. The posters mentioning moral and legal contracts and comparing them all saying nobody is obliged to uphold a moral contract is horrifying.

The OW hasn't made a commitment to you. He has!

If you break up a home knowingly, I don't think that is necessarily blameless. Nor do I think happy relationships are immune to someone seducing the man at least - few men have enough sexual continence to withstand a sustained campaign unless they in the "in love" stage.

Sometimes, though, the new relationship is meant to be and the old one isn't and it isn't too late to course correct. It would be sad if hard and fast rules meant we publicly shunned every OW for finding the love of their life because of a relationship they never committed to.

The posters mentioning moral and legal contracts and comparing them all saying nobody is obliged to uphold a moral contract is horrifying

The problem with ‘moral contacts’ is that they’re subjective. Your moral compass may be different to mine. And you don’t get to demand that I adhere to yours, in the same way that I don’t get to demand you adhere to mine.

So, marry a man who is trustworthy and who shares your moral code and there won’t be an issue, even if he encounters temptation from someone else.

Nor do I think happy relationships are immune to someone seducing the man at least - few men have enough sexual continence to withstand a sustained campaign unless they in the "in love" stage

People, usually women, really hold men to such low standards. Maybe we should all wear burkas, so we don’t tempt the poor men who just can’t help themselves.

few men have enough sexual continence to withstand a sustained campaign unless they in the "in love" stage.Even if this depressing and rather sexist statement is true, it doesn't make the man any less responsible. If he can't resist a woman's advances, it's his duty not to commit to a monogamous relationship.

I do agree with this in part, I'm fortunate enough to be with a very good man who shares my values but I think this is why I'm even more convinced we have a collective duty to behave decently towards others. I do get your point that it's subjective but then so are a lot of morally conscious decisions and people saying we aren't all the same isn't really good enough, I want my younger siblings to have what I have one day and be with someone who loves and respect them and they can really live a lovely life with. I never want for their kindness or trust to be exploited or for other women or men to make a mockery of it. I see it so often and it's unacceptable.

I'm fortunate enough to be with a very good man who shares my values

You have demonstrated your values to be sexism, misogyny and double standards.