To disagree with the statement "the other woman owes you nothing"

[Sarahcoggles]

I see this time and again on MN.
Woman posts that husband is having an affair. She hates the OW and is very angry with her, as well as being angry with husband of course.
Then a load of posters pile in saying she should direct all her anger at husband, as he was the only one who owed her anything. The OW owed her nothing, so she shouldn't be angry with her.

I think that's wrong. We all owe our fellow human beings respect and courtesy. If I bump someone's car in a car park I should leave them a note. I don't owe them anything, I never promised I wouldn't bump into their car, they didn't put their trust in me not to bump into their car , I never promised to pay for any damage that I might do to their car. They don't even know me. But it's still my fault, my carelessness, and common courtesy dictates that I should leave a note and be held accountable.

Why is it perfectly fine to have a relationship with someone else's husband, knowing that you're going to hurt that person, just because they're a stranger and you never promised you wouldn't shag their husband?

Personally I think both parties are equally to blame, just in different ways.

Well then, the person in the relationship should understand that they're not available. And then nothing can happen. They are theur own gatekeeper. The fidelity that exists solely from lack of opportunity is worthless. If you can trust your partner, nothing else matters.

It's madness to hold three billion strangers responsible for the promise one person made to you. Some people think marriage is a repressive institution and don't consent to be sexually bound by it. They're allowed to feel that way and live accordingly. As long as everyone who has made a promise abides by it, all is well.

@ReneBumsWombats the point is if the attached person decides to seek a relationship elsewhere, they are in fact still in a relationship and therefore unavailable.
It is not up to anyone else to get involved until they are available (or the other person in the relationship consents to their partner seeing others)

I agree with you OP

and a cheated on wife doesn’t owe her husbands mistress anything least of all respect, compassion, forgiveness or any sort of moral pardon and nobody should suggest that she does

The point is that if the attached person decides to seek a relationship elsewhere, that's entirely on them. Because they're attached. You can't make a promise with Brian and then say Gemma and Lee and Anna are responsible for it. Are you suggesting that YOU aren't totally responsible for your promises? That if YOU strayed, it wouldn't be entirely your fault and your husband should blame the OM?

Why do you even want Brian if he's always sniffing around other people? What's his fidelity worth if he's faithful only because he can't find anyone to say yes?

You make a promise, it's on you. To say others are responsible for it is weak and self-serving. Your promises don't mean anything if you don't own them.

What even is the point of blaming the OW/OM? They're not married to you and they're not going to be part of any reconciliation. So what are you going to do with this excess 50% blame that's not on your husband? Take it to marriage counselling? Demand it shows remorse?

All it does is dilute your husband's responsibility, weaken his promise and, therefore, prime him to cheat again. Why not? It's only partly his fault!

Generally the OW is being lied to.

My wife doesn't understand me
We are separated
We are only staying together for the sake of the children
We don't have sex anymore
We are more like sister and brother
I will leave after Christmas/ the holidays/ the kids' birthdays.
You're special. I've never felt like this before etc

Can't see they are as much to blame as The faithless husband.

For the marriage, it's 100% on the married person who has the affair. But I dropped my best friend of 25 years after she had an affair (she was single and he was married, her boss and had several children) because I realized she wasn't the person I thought she was and that, actually, all those niggles I'd had for years that she was a bit manipulative were proved true and I couldn't get past them.

So, no. The wife shouldn't really blame the other woman but the other woman's friends can probably judge her just as well.

I suppose it's an excellent concept having no moral obligations in life, whereby you only reap the 'benefits'.

Also great if you can apply it to everyone, including the lover you hold so dear, would it for example be upsetting for many ow to find out they are number 24 in the ow line up, I'm figuring it shouldn't actually bother them, Be also hopeful it happens to your own children whereby it affects their kids and also your parents, that would be nice your own dads shagging behind mummies back, you never know it may result in him leaving, and your inheritance halving. Bliss.

Happy days.
A world in which no one is accountable for anything would be great, no pressure, no society, lets go for anarchism, no policing of anything, no responsiblities.
I bet though many of the people who bleat on about opting out of moral responsibilities would be some of the first to complain if anything unjust was applied to their own life. We are all bound by the rules of society many rules that are not legal yet are incredibly important to maintain the fabric of society to civilise.

I'm not saying don't shag married men if you have to but be open about it, let people know but you can't because no one would be happy, so although you believe it is your right to have secretive sex and intimacy, you don't actually ever admit it in the real world. What's the point in having these excuses when you don't actually state them in the real world. I suppose it never being exposed or analysed keeps it not only being private and secret it can also keep it free from judgement, to be with someone and no one can comment on the equality of the union. It's really a very cowardly way of attaining love and attention not expecting better treatment, to be honourned. It seems there are many people who are too scared to expect more respect.

What a life, lies and secrecy, honestly you couldn't pay me to keep and live a life of lies just for a man, it's something that must end up affecting you spiritually. As much as it hurts to be betrayed and the loss of peace you suffer in your life, surely for the ow there must also be confusion, a lack of quiet normalacy that most people aim for so they can concentrate on other areas of their lives, stability and routine of safeness makes for a more productive life I would imagine.

So much drama for not much return it seems to me and a whole lot of excuses to make your behaviour justifiable to your own selves and internet strangers, no one else gets to hear them though.
Nope don't think it would be worth it to me, much rather meet a man and be able to walk down the street with him, proudly being exclusive, I'd hate to hide.
No one with any self worth hides, it's a lot to ask when you double date with a cheater. Can you imagine giving the very essence of yourself and not being able to be honest and open and shouting your love from the rooftops, it must be horrendous keeping it under wraps when you're in full infatuation, lust and love.

It must hurt, don't think I could handle that and I know there will be many that say it suits them to keep shagging the same man for years but the very act of an on going affair is that you want that specific man, do ow delude themselves about how much they like their cheater ? do they pacify themselves saying they don't care as much as they do, to make it bearable.

So apart from the 'moral' excuses of it's all on him, I just can't see it being very healthy for yourselves, there seems to be too many losses and not enough gains.

Ramble Ramble
I don't think I'll ever get it.

Then she’s at least to blame for believing anything a man she knows is married tells her. No married man who is cheating or wants to cheat is going to be a catch, let’s face it.

@ReneBumsWombats This thread isn’t about dishing out percentages of blame about the marriage. Of course the husband is the one that broke the marriage.

This thread is discussing the OW. And it’s just wrong to have a romantic/sexual relationship with someone when they are already in a relationship with someone else. It’s deceitful and disrespectful. They owe the marriage nothing, as you say they made no vows. They do owe a responsibility to the individuals involved though. The fact that OW generally have to lie to the wife/ partner would indicate they are in the wrong already.

As an aside I am going out for a drink with a male work colleague. My DH may have concerns about this but he trusts my intentions. He also knows my position on cheating. If I wanted to be with someone else I would already be gone.
I also know that male colleague understands that a drink doesn’t mean a date. He knows this because I am married. I didn’t have to point it out to him either. If he can understand this relatively simple concept there is no reason why anyone else can’t get it either.

No married man who is cheating or wants to cheat is going to be a catch, let’s face it.

Indeed. Makes me wonder why so many wives are desperate to keep these men then, and will live lives where they are policing their husbands, eliminating any potential threats and forgiving any betrayals… why? For someone who isn’t a catch? And yet they talk about OW having poor self-esteem?

If a man is only faithful to you because you’ve removed any opportunity for him to be unfaithful, his fidelity is worth fuck all. An analogy I’ve seen here before is about robbing a bank, even if I could somehow do it with a guarantee it would be consequence-free for me, I still wouldn’t do it. Because I’m an honest person with integrity and generally am law-abiding. If I would rob the bank if the opportunity arose, it makes me dishonest, lacking in integrity and untrustworthy etc.

If a man is only faithful to you because you’ve removed any opportunity
for him to be unfaithful, his fidelity is worth fuck all. An analogy
I’ve seen here before is about robbing a bank, even if I could somehow
do it with a guarantee it would be consequence-free for me, I still
wouldn’t do it. Because I’m an honest person with integrity and
generally am law-abiding. If I would rob the bank if the opportunity
arose, it makes me dishonest, lacking in integrity and untrustworthy
etc.

We all agree that the man has no morals, it doesn't alter the fact that ow are just as bad lacking in morals, intergrity and honesty.

One never negates the other.
Both are separate entities, both should police themselves.

People are usually judged on their behaviour during their lifetime, we have no other benchmark, generally speaking having a relationship with someone who you know should be in a monogamous relationship is considered bad behaviour, add into the fact an innocent person knows nothing about the said behaviour then that makes it even worse.

Yes have your own boundaries, do not rely on a male to take reponsibility for your weakneses or abhorant choices.
You cannot expect a male to take all the blame to coerce you into sleeping with him, you have your own agency in this, grown up adult choices that may spare an innocent person or children from pain.

Why would you go there, men really arn't worth that are they, seriously a shag is more important than hurting someone or being party to that hurt.

That's what monogamous people can't get their heads arround, it's as alien to us as going out and randomly shooting someone and then blaming the person who passed you the gun.

Just don't do it, there are other options.

Yes have your own boundaries, do not rely on a male to take reponsibility for your weakneses or abhorant choices.
You cannot expect a male to take all the blame to coerce you into sleeping with him, you have your own agency in this, grown up adult choices that may spare an innocent person or children from pain

I am of course responsible for my behaviour, and I never suggested otherwise, nor did I suggest I lacked agency. But what I object to is being held responsible for a man’s behaviour, or for ensuring a man upholds a commitment he made, a contract I am not party to nor bound by. How often do we see it on here, women spoken about in terms of ‘stealing a man’, ‘tempting him’, ‘turning his head’, as if these poor helpless men are the ones lacking agency and are victims in the scenario. A decent, honest man could be faced with the most attractive woman in the world seducing him and he would not stray, because of his own integrity and moral compass. If a woman isn’t confident her husband would react in that way, then she doesn’t have a trustworthy husband.

For the avoidance of any doubt, I am not nor have I ever been an OW. Cheating, dishonest men do not appeal to me. But these discussions fascinate me, as it appalls me to see the lengths some women will go to in order to cling on to failing relationships, and they will blame the stranger who didn’t enter into any contract with them rather than the man who claimed to love them and who made a legal and social contract with them. And I also object to being held responsible for men not cheating- another common refrain here is “if women wouldn’t shag married men, they couldn’t cheat could they” - again, passing the blame to the women.
And finally, not everyone places value on marriage as an institution and feels it’s inherently worthy of respect. Presumably those entering into a marriage do, but they can’t expect all others to hold it in similar esteem.

*Why would you go there, men really arn't worth that are they, seriously a shag is more important than hurting someone or being party to that hurt.

That's what monogamous people can't get their heads arround, it's as alien to us as going out and randomly shooting someone and then blaming the person who passed you the gun*

To me, blaming the OW for your husband cheating is like blaming the person who sold the shooter the gun…

‘To me, blaming the OW for your husband cheating is like blaming the person who sold the shooter the gun…’

Except the OW/OM is a sentient being CHOOSING to be the gun not an inanimate object 🙄.

Infidelity is now wildly considered an abusive act. I could not and would not choose to help another abuse their partner and take their right to informed sexual consent from them.

it’s morally reprehensible.

Most of us live our lives trying not to hurt others either intentionally or unintentionally, laws are created on this, infidelity is the only example where a minority seem to think hurting another isn’t ‘their’ problem because they didn’t make the vows. It’s crazy.

It’s also telling that I know of several APs who thought this but with time wish they had never engaged in an affair and feel huge guilt for it. So somewhere deep down it did affect them and went against their moral compass.

This thread isn’t about dishing out percentages of blame about the marriage. Of course the husband is the one that broke the marriage.This thread is discussing the OW.

Yes, it always is. Why do you think that is?

Married cheating men are fucking laughing. Then they're just fucking. It's a zombie so I can't remember, have we had the "OW deserves heartbreak, MM deserves more cheating sex" shite yet? We will have.

They owe the marriage nothing, as you say they made no vows. They do owe a responsibility to the individuals involved though.

This is a total contradiction, as is "we aren't blaming the OW, we're just focusing the discussion entirely on her and how shit she is".

Blame your sexually incontinent husband. It's his promise, so it's his fault. If he's such a dog that you've got a better chance by moralising against three billion women instead of just trusting him, why do you even want him?

*‘To me, blaming the OW for your husband cheating is like blaming the person who sold the shooter the gun…’

Except the OW/OM is a sentient being CHOOSING to be the gun not an inanimate object 🙄*

Roll your eyes all you like, the person I was replying to with that was someone who likened being an OW and assigning the blame to the cheating man to randomly shooting someone and blaming the person who passed them the gun. So I used that same analogy to illustrate my point. The OW and the cheating man are the two sentient beings involved, obviously, but only one of them has entered into a legal contract with someone else.

To me, blaming the OW for your husband cheating is like blaming the person who sold the shooter the gun…’Except the OW/OM is a sentient being CHOOSING to be the gun not an inanimate object 🙄.

No, they're not. Ridiculous comparison.

Why isn't your husband solely responsible for his promises? Aren't you? Do you hold other men responsible for your own fidelity?

I’ve never understood the lack of blame for the OW on here either. Whilst yes of course, your husband owes you loyalty and he’s the one that made the promises, knowingly shagging a married man, for me, is just unthinkable. And, I’m sure the OW more often than not isn’t some man hungry predator who can be blamed for leading the poor, misguided husband astray. If it hadn’t been that ow, it would have been someone else. The husband in this scenario is flawed and weak and dreadfully selfish. However, I’m not remotely religious but I think treating others how you would wish to be treated is a good standard to live by. Being party to the devastating deceit and the removal of another woman’s (or man’s for that matter) agency is not something I could ever live with. I have absolutely no desire to cause terrible pain to someone, whether I know them or not.

We all agree that the man has no morals, it doesn't alter the fact that ow are just as bad lacking in morals, intergrity and honesty.

How can a person who breaks a promise to you and lies to be every day and shits on his own family ever be no worse than a person who didn't do any of those things?

Whilst yes of course, your husband owes you loyalty and he’s the one that made the promises, knowingly shagging a married man, for me, is just unthinkable.

You didn't need the second part of this sentence. Keep to the first and all is good. Isn't a married man cheating also unthinkable?

All you people hell bent on the OW being equally responsible or just as bad; so are other men partly responsible for you staying faithful to your husband? If you did stray (yes, I know you wouldn't), would you start arguing with your husband that your affair partner was just as bad and he should be blaming him? That your duty wasn't really 100% on you and every man in the world was your gatekeeper?

Careful @ReneBumsWombats, you’ll shortly be accused of being an OW yourself, that’s usually the way these discussions go! Dare to suggest that the people responsible for men being faithful are the men themselves and you are scum of the earth, apparently.

Absolutely this. I'd say the vast majority of OW are being fed these lines and are gullible enough to fall for it.

I already was, earlier in the thread. Always am.

Apparently that's the only way you could ever come to think that you yourself are solely responsible for your own promises, and apply that to other individuals too. Interesting...