To think that the NHS had lost the plot over breastfeeding?

[WandaWomblesaurus]

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10892531/NHS-accused-putting-babies-harm-advice-trans-women-wanting-breastfeed.html

It feels like some kind of bizarre experiment - except it's babies who are being used for affirmation.

Am I being gaslit here?

Well, I am just waiting for the African tribe and uterine implants to be brought up again like they are some kind of 'gotcha'. I see we have already had the 'you are homophobes' and 'MN is sooooo transphobic' (of course it isn't!) as well.

We have had 'hysteria', and never trust the DM as well. I think we have also seen 'live and let live' like everyone should overlook the safeguarding issues around this as well.... but I am distracted by the extended discussion around 'cis'.

It seems this thread is going par for the course at the moment.

Ken, I don't think this is the right page as I'm sure I've seen a different one on her site which covers it but I'm certain you could with the symptoms you describe. Hot flushes are definitely a key word they use.

www.newsonhealth.co.uk/uploads/2021/07/Starting-or-continuing-HRT-after-the-menopause-v21-02.pdf

Absolutely.
Someone posted a link on MN regarding this issue, which showed an XY person ''Self pleasuring'' {Poorly pixellated out} while attached to a mechanical breast pump.

Babies should not be used for acting out fantasies.

Mothers who need actual help with breastfeeding could well be put off by the fetishisation of breastfeeding {By XY's} in this manner.

If you're referring to me saying don't trust the DM - yes, because aligning ourselves with the DM view of the world is shooting ourselves straight in the foot. I am very, very worried about the trans issue, there is absolutely nothing benign or meaningless about it. But I want to play the real issues on the table, not the Daily Mail finding the opportunity to bash the NHS. I want to keep the focus on GIDS, on the significant progress made on stamping out the idea of "born in the wrong body" from Mermaids, capitalise on some of the recent wins and consolidate them. Not fall into traps.

Why would anyone risk the health of their baby? Deliberately?

Because these self absorbed men care more about themselves and bringing a baby into their fairytale to complete their image than they do an actual human life. It’s vile.

It's wrong, wrong, wrong on so many levels.

Here is another DM article, this time from Australia that is referenced in the article posted by the OP.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10859287/Transgender-paramedic-breastfed-newborn-baby-know-like-mum.html

A transgender mother who was born male has described how 'breastfeeding' her baby an hour after her wife gave birth to the boy helped affirm her as a woman and she feels proud.

'Being a trans woman I can't carry, it's one of the limitations of it all,' Ms Buckley told Daily Mail Australia.

'To know I could breastfeed my own child and have that experience, I wanted to be a part of that. I wanted to know what it was like to be a mum and breastfeed.'

The controversial practice has been criticised by specialists as experimental and unethical but Ms Buckley believed she had the right to breastfeed her infant.

The 41-year-old would never be able to carry her own baby but began medically transitioning into a woman in 2017 after years of feeling she was female.

Then

'I will never know what's it like to menstruate or carry a baby or give birth,' Ms Buckley said.

'But to be told I could have the opportunity to breastfeed, it was something that was nice to be able to experience as a trans woman.'

Ms Buckley said her endocrinologist had suggested she try to produce breast milk a couple of months before her wife gave birth.

Then

'The first time it came out I just started leaking,' Ms Buckley said. 'Then I pumped and it was a weird feeling having a suction cap suck out milk, but it was exciting.

'I thought, "Oh my God, I am actually producing human milk".'

I look forward to posters telling us that this male paramedic's experience has been all about the infant and totally infant 'focused'.

@Helleofabore

No one has said "you are homophobes"

I pointed out that the blanket statements about how any transwoman wanting to breastfeed is a safeguarding issue are offensive. And that it is reminiscent of the cries that gay men shouldn't be allowed to have children because it's also a safeguading issue, which were based in homophobia.

Fundamentally, someone who wants to abuse their child will do so whether they do so regardless of what they are/aren't advised. And so surely your issue should be transwomen having children at all, rather than focussing on this specific aspect.

I'll repeat again, I don't think transwomen should be attempting this, as it seems like anyone challenging anything on the thread need to repeat it!

And yet, I read a very wide range of sources which I am sure you do. Do you see other media picking this up?

There are also some of the feminist writers who are writing for the DM.

I think it is short sighted to discount articles from DM as it is to discount articles from other sources. Read them, follow any evidence to check the expertise of the experts and add it to the list of evidence is my approach.

I don't agree with any person telling me that 'reading the DM' is aligning myself any faction or political group.

@ReneBumsWombats I saw you upthread rejecting the word "woman" because you don't like the associations. That's ridiculous. It means "adult human female" - that's it. Sorry I think what I wrote was not clear. I agree, I meant I don't like the associations of the term 'ciswoman'. I call myself a woman, I love being a woman. I agree that womanhood is sex based, and I agree that you can't opt in because you feel a certain way.

I don't know, I feel that I'm causing more polemic than I'm really intending. My only point was that I think there is a fine, non-offensive use of 'ciswoman', to just mean, identify with your natal sex. And that's fine right, we do identify with our natal sex for the most part? I don't mean to say that: I think it's the best term; it's better than 'woman'; it's what medical professionals should use. And I worry that the outrage over the term (which I realise I am just contributing to now) detracts from the real issue.

I think I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle. On the actual topic, I think the headline is misleading, it's not being NHS recommended. I too would question why someone would want to do this instead of formula feeding. But I also think that on main trans people are very damaged, and that there is something driving them to feel like they need to lactate - it's not for baby's good, so what is it for? I don't think it's a fetish. It's because I think we as a society push this gender binary, and push paradigmatic examples of each gender, such as breastfeeding as a paradigmatic example of a good woman that they then feel pressure to imitate.

@Topgub Yes I seem to be on a different name on my phone, don't know why. I didn't say ought not be offended!

Someone posted a link on MN regarding this issue, which showed an XY person ''Self pleasuring'' {Poorly pixellated out} while attached to a mechanical breast pump.

I was looking at a pride or celebratory lgbt post on twitter, a hashtag. Quite corporate etc. Two clicks away I saw that image and as was so shocked as I had no idea, sent to the authors of the article, hence the longer article, as it's apparently 'well known'.

I reported it to twitter but was clearly v naive to how common it is on the site and comes under freedom of expression (no pun intended.) about a fortnight later Channel 4 had a documentary about men who have lactational fetishes so it seems pretty common place.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-queering-of-motherhood

www.channel4.com/programmes/breastfeeding-my-boyfriend

I'm not surprised there's been a x4000 increase in young girls being referred to gender clinics, asking for mastectomies, under today's SM pressures.

I pointed out that the blanket statements about how any transwoman wanting to breastfeed is a safeguarding issue are offensive. And that it is reminiscent of the cries that gay men shouldn't be allowed to have children because it's also a safeguading issue, which were based in homophobia.

So...raising it as a safeguarding issue is offensive? And akin to homophobia even though you are saying you are not calling those pointing out that it is a safeguarding issue homophobic???

Why do you not think linking this in this way is not stating people calling this a safeguarding issue is not saying people are homophobic as a group?

And so surely your issue should be transwomen having children at all, rather than focussing on this specific aspect.

Why? Is there an issue for males who have transitioned to be generally a safeguarding issue in your mind? I don't believe that I have ever said that. There are plenty of trans people who have children and are doing what they can to be good parents.

Or are you also accusing people disagreeing that males should not be breastfeeding of blanket phobic tendencies against those males and not addressing each issue with the specific attention it deserves?

I had never heard of the term "cis" before this thread.

It is alien and derogatory to me.

I am a woman.

I was born a woman, I will die a woman.

Why do you not think linking this in this way is not stating people calling this a safeguarding issue is not saying people are homophobic as a group?

Too many 'nots'

Why do you think linking this in this way is not stating people calling this a safeguarding issue is saying people are homophobic as a group?

Ie. Why do you think your linkage is not attributing homophobia to the group stating this is a safeguarding issue.

I genuinely don't understand your reply @Helleofabore

The issue is that you're claiming transwoman are doing this as a sexual fetish, making it a safeguarding issue.

Surely you can see this is a problematic blanket statement?

Aware of the self medicating of hormone therapy. Also aware that without seeing a professional endocrinologist, a transwoman won't have access to the medication and support to make a milk supply possible.

So I doubt that's going to be an issue in all fairness.

It's not a fetish - autogynephilia (sp?) exists but in a very small number of people. Please would people stop stating transwomen are fetishists - who knows, maybe they and their partners are into foot worshipping or light BDSM within the bedroom, but in the sense you're describing, it's not common.

I'd welcome and encourage transwomen to take part in clinical studies on this - so that there was proper, fair, unbiased and factual research results in medical journals to understand it's safety for both parent and baby. That would be a sensible thing to do.

No, you're not been gaslighted. It's scaremongering. But I do believe studies need to be created and volunteers found to make appropriate studies. It's important to understand everything we can. Regarding anything really, not just this.

sensible reply @TheHomeContact

because aligning ourselves with the DM view of the world

This is a very teenage view of the world.

If I agree with a news article or with a person about something I’m not “aligning” myself with the paper, or with that person.

It doesn’t mean that all of my other beliefs will change, it just means that I agree with them on that one thing.

It’s how the adult world works. I work with people who have very different personal beliefs to me. I still value their professional opinion and agree about work decisions.

Please would people stop stating transwomen are fetishists - who knows, maybe they and their partners are into foot worshipping or light BDSM within the bedroom, but in the sense you're describing, it's not common.

Yes - I find this continually being brought up on these kinds of threads which completely derails from sensible conversation.

I had the misfortune to click on one the lactation fantasy forums linked to on another thread about this, and there were plenty of women posting stories/photos.

It's just nonsenical to find evidence of a transwomen having it as a fetish, repeatedly linking it to the thread, and applying it to all.

I pointed out that the blanket statements about how any transwoman wanting to breastfeed is a safeguarding issue are offensive.

Could you explain what benefits there are for the infant in having a male feeding them from their breast?

Considering:

-The composition of that secretion is unresearched and therefore unknown including testosterone and other drug interactions.

-The quantity is known to be less than a new born is needing for their nutritional needs. Therefore that new born is getting less nutrition into their tiny stomach than they need.

What are the benefits to the infant over formula feeding appropriate stage formula that has been well researched and tested?

Putting a male's needs over an infant's is a safeguarding issue. Can you tell us why it is not to be considered a safeguarding issue?

I think it’s a fetish.

Who is benefiting from this hormone induced sludge? Not the baby

Of course not - but that specific DM is blatantly designed for NHS bashing and transphobia - it's a great clickbait article.

No rational arguements, and a lot of misinformation about domperidone which plenty of women use for breastfeeding.

The issue is that you're claiming transwoman are doing this as a sexual fetish, making it a safeguarding issue.

Surely you can see this is a problematic blanket statement

There are other considerations that are infant centric being discussed on this thread too. Are you ignoring those?

And are you denying there is a small group of males who are doing this for reasons that are solely about their own needs and not the child's?

@Helleofabore I'm just saying that there is a difference between voicing concerns about conflicting rights between women and trans women, and the way the Daily Mail makes this into a very right-wing issue for their own purposes. Let's just say I've observed a connection between some very bigoted friends ("I don't like foreigners, but I don't mean you"), and Daily Mail readership.