To think that the NHS had lost the plot over breastfeeding?

[WandaWomblesaurus]

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10892531/NHS-accused-putting-babies-harm-advice-trans-women-wanting-breastfeed.html

It feels like some kind of bizarre experiment - except it's babies who are being used for affirmation.

Am I being gaslit here?

It really depends on how lucky you get with doctor re: domperidone. My friend had it prescribed no problem, even as a 'just in case' thing while she was having some issues with baby's weight gain. I ended up going to get it privately to help with exclusive pumping for the first few weeks.

She didn't call her personally a cis woman, she called natal women in general cis women. You lot do yourselves no favours with this langauge policing. Ciswoman is a perfectly normal and acceptable turn of phrase, and is particularly helpful to differentiate when we are talking specifically about things to which (cis)women and trans women react differently to. You don't get to dictate other people's normal use of language.

Women are having our language policed though. 'Cis' women is a term not initially chosen by women and it is not accepted by the majority of women. For most of us 'cis' is either meaningless or a slur.

Who do you mean by 'you lot'? Why would it be helpful? Sorry, so when talking about pregnancy and childbirth and breastfeeding now, we need to be called ciswomen rather than women to make sure we are not getting confused with transwomen? Is that what you are saying?

I get to dictate what I don't wish to be called. Don't I? Or because I am 'cis' and not 'trans' I don't get to? it's fine and normal TO YOU. TO YOU. TO YOU. Who are you to say what I do and don't find offensive? Who are you to say that some women don't find the term cis offensive?

Of course I know this. I'm not talking about 'Oh look this is nice, it'll save you money', I'm talking about the pressure everywhere to breastfeed. I was given a breatfeeding leaflet at my first midwife's appointment, at 8 weeks pregnant, and the campaign only increased from there. There is still stigma surrounding bottle feeding by some practitioners and members of society. "breast is best" and so on. All I'm sayign is if there wasn't so much pressure around breastfeeding for mums, maybe there wouldn't be this demand for trans mums to breastfeed.

Also we need to stop pretending that breast milk is free. I ate literally double my usual calorie intake to keep up my supply, and was absolutely exhausted.

Ciswoman is a perfectly normal and acceptable turn of phrase, and is particularly helpful to differentiate when we are talking specifically about things to which (cis)women and trans women react differently to. You don't get to dictate other people's normal use of language.

It really isn't an acceptable turn of phrase to many women. Doesn't it matter that many women are offended by it?

Oh it changed my name to a joke one! the above is me.

No need for this in what is supposed to be s rational debate.

I’m not necessarily in agreement about the use of this drug for this purpose, but this comment is appalling.

Women are being eradicated bit by bit from websites, traditionally womens' matters, women's groups are forced to admit men who say they are not men, we have to have the prefix "cis" which is totally meaningless to me, why not ditch that and just call people what they are i'e women or trans.
I don't know if I'm being dramatic but it's like the hatred for women that started the witchcraze all over again.
Only now we are treated like angry harridans and monsters if we don't agree to being eradicated.
It's scaring me to death.

I'm not saying that you can't be offended by it. I'm not saying that we need to be called ciswomen now. Yes, you can say what YOU want to be called. I'm not saying women can't find it offensive - I find it offensive myself, I correct anyone who calls me a ciswoman.

What I am saying it's a term that is mainstream, and not packed with the connotations that you are reading into it for everyone. If the poster who used the term - she wasn't talking about you, she was talking generally - wants to use that term, she can. You ought not tell her to stop using it. She is using it to disitnguish natal women from tarns women, for clarificatory purposes on this tread. She has not attacked you personally. Her use of langauge was fine.

Same. But look at some of the posters on here. Just falling over themselves and shoving two fingers up at everything women have fought for and gone through over the years to be inclusive. Good luck to them.

Floralarrangement it's not breastfeeding.

And It's not akin to the homophobia of the past. This is a lazy analogy.

You are welcome to disagree but don't call it "breastfeeding," a unique infant mother dyad that takes a good 6 weeks to properly establish successfully. Be clear about what it actually is: it's a male desiring to give secretions to a newborn.

If successful in a male, It's not enough to sustain weight gain as evidenced in the very rare occurrence where a male was enabled to do this. So it's not best for the infant in this context.

There are any number of ways a male can bond with a baby for the baby and mother's benefit.

You keep talking as though what you are saying is fact! I ought not to do this and I can't do that. You know that I can argue against the use of it right?

Why would anyone risk the health of their baby? Deliberately? Given the guidance in so many countries is to avoid due to the high risk of serious negative consequences… So to add to the hormone mix then let a child ingest it is incomprehensible to me.

I often wonder what a longitudinal follow up on children “impacted” by the gender ideologues and their behaviour and medication regimes will reveal. It scares and horrifies me just what is coming - those poor children….

Surely the correct way to distinguish transwomen from women is just that?

Transwomen and women.

Cis is not required.

The idea of women being called 'you lot' and criticised for tone policing language is crazy.

If someone refused to acknowledge that calling a Transwomen he was offensive there would be absolute outrage

Cis is offensive however you package it. But if that’s your view then let’s stop messing about with the trans women term and call them men, or men pretending to be women. That makes things much clearer. Funny how it never matters if women are offended but men must be tiptoed around.

There are valid arguments against a transwomen attempting to breastfeed, based of the current lack of good quality evidence, but none are in that DM article. It's just written to whip up transphobia and anger towards the NHS. Looks to have suceeded

The article is one that seems to be covering a whole lot of ground. And it makes no mention of who the experts were that were contacted that spurred the article.

However, what is it saying that isn't true?

If you wish to focus solely on the DM article, what do you find abhorrent about it?

Is it possible that there are males in the UK are breastfeeding their infants? It is absolutely possible. There are websites out there that show just how to do this.

www.them.us/story/trans-women-breastfeed/amp

From North America, but at least one of these males brought about some kind of lactation (not verified at all!) just for the ‘experience’. One wanted to ‘mature their breast tissue’.

I believe this is a transitioned male who is writing this article too. So, I will be written from that perspective entirely.

This is happening and it cannot be denied that it is. And this article states it cannot be confirmed that no male is doing this in the UK.

Officials, however, do not know exactly how many women, or transwomen, take the drug for this reason.

The spokesperson also declined to say if transwomen are eligible for the treatment on the NHS

There are Endocrinologists around the world who fully support this action by males so, tracking that it could be happening in the UK would be difficult.

I shall post some of the other links from the recent thread that show that even transitioned male experts in this field are absolutely raising flags here because:

-Research has been done on Domperidone on females and the output of the drug from THEIR breasts not on males. And anyone reading latest information about how drugs react differently in male bodies to female bodies should therefore have concerns on this. It may be that males secrete dangerous amounts of the drug through breast secretions. However, there are no studies into the composition of the secretions from males on that drug whatsoever.

-There is also no research on the other interactions of any other drugs taken by a transitioned male. And that includes testosterone levels which are notoriously erratic to control and so if that male has their testes still, it is completely unresearched what the side-effects on an infant is. Of course, the interactions between female hormones through breastmilk has been documented, including research into contraceptive hormones.

-It is known that male breasts lack the interaction between the infant and the composition of the milk made by females who have delivered of that infant. No male breast produces colostrum, and no adjustments are made automatically to suit the child's development and needs. So, again, who is benefitting from this milk of unknown composition and the quantity is also not there?

-The quantities of breast secretions from males is not enough to sustain an infant. Here is an excerpt from a review of a study where a male fed their newborn child exclusively for 6 weeks. I found these paragraphs very concerning... what ethical study allows a newborn to be underfed for six weeks? Something is not quite adding up here, but anyway, that was what the study recorded.

After three months of treatment, this increased to 227 grams of breast milk per day. Once the baby was born, she was able to exclusively breastfeed the infant for six weeks – during which time a paediatrician confirmed the baby was growing and developing normally and healthily.

Although significant, this is below the average of around 500 grams that a baby consumes by the time the it is 5 days old. After six weeks, the woman supplemented her breastfeeding with formula.

www.newscientist.com/article/2161151-transgender-woman-is-first-to-be-able-to-breastfeed-her-baby/#ixzz6f2Pil0Ik

Thanks Hellebore.

A very unhysterical analysis of current evidence.

idk maybe we're talking cross purposes. This is what I was responding to: @FairyLightPups don’t use the term cis, I’m not a subset of my sex.

That is an order, not an argument.

I think my view is generally, when something is contentious, all uses are fine.

If someone refused to acknowledge that calling a Transwomen he was offensive there would be absolute outrage

I think it's fine to call transwomen 'he' and refer to them as men. Most on MN seems to agree, you see it here all the time. Again, I think you ought to call them the pronouns they want to their face. Just as you should use any terms about people that they prefer, like not using birth mum to someone who objects.

I'm sorry if you lot found the term 'you lot' offensive - I meant to indicate people who think no one should say 'cis' even when describing women generally and even when talking about themselves.

You know that men that claim to be women often have to take 100x the dose that an actual woman does? ONE HUNDRED !!!

@AgathaAllAlong

So you're ordering people not to be offended by the term cis but are annoyed they are ordering people not to use it?

Okay then

Good stuff!

Yes. Rather Warrior.

If is always very enlightening to see these posts.... 'hysteria'. I think it was used on the recent thread as well.

Not one poster who supported males feeding infants from their breasts could support their claim that males should be assisted and supported to do so. Not one.

Yet, posters posting links, evidence and logic are denigrated to being 'hysterical'.

Same old, same old.

You don't get to dictate other people's normal use of language

@AgathaAllAlong I think you'll find this is exactly what is expected of women, my normal use of language is sex based, like you I call a trans woman he, I am then attacked for being transphobic! Where does it end? No descriptor is needed women and transwomen are perfectly fine on their own, everyone knows what they mean, most people in the real world have no clue what "cis" even means.

Where did I say that? Be offended by whatever you like. Kid called me old lady the other day, offended me till the end of the day.

@FUCKINGSEAN

Do you have 2 names?

Youve said 'ought not to' about 10 times