Challenging racism - did I do enough? AIBU to take it further?

[Cma1988]

Im mixed-race (black-white) (relevant to the story) and I’m currently away at a residential course.

This morning one lady on the course left suddenly, we don’t know the reason, I guess something personal, and this lady is black (again, only mentioning as it’s relevant.

This evening few of us were playing cards in the lounge this evening, and I don’t even know how it even came about in conversation as I was only half-listening at this point, but one guy, (who is white South African) made a comment about the basement (we are staying in an old manor type house) and then he said “maybe that’s where Jane went,, mind you she’ll have to smile so you could see her”. There was a awkward silence and then another lady who doesn’t have English as her first language asked him what he meant, and he then explained his “joke” saying you know, you can’t see black people in the dark, only their teeth and then laughed again. I was in total shock that he could say something so horrendously racist - and worse - in front of me - as if he was saying a completely normal comment.
I challenged him saying “that’s not funny and it’s actually really racist and I can’t believe you just said that. He then went in to defend himself and justify himself saying that it was a joke, that he grew up in South Africa where he had black friends and they made that joke all the time and apparently his black friends used to make the joke too and he just brushed it off and carried on shuffling the cards. I then told him again that I was very upset by his joke and that He had shown his true colours because if he had made that joke in front of me, what would he be saying behind my (or any other person of colours) back. He then gave a poor excuse for an apology, he said sorry, but backed his sorry with more defending himself and I left and went to bed.

I’m now stewing with anger in bed, thinking I didn’t challenge him enough and feeling really hurt by his casual racism. I’m wondering if I should just leave it now, or if I should take it up again tomorrow either with him or with the course leaders? We are here together until Saturday but we will be joining together again in a few weeks for part 2 of the course and I feel that maybe he should be formally spoken to? Or am I overreacting? I really want to make a formal complaint about him. AIBU?

Her name isn’t really “Jane”, I’ve obviously changed it

i think you did really well to challenge him. A formal complaint wouldn’t be too far IMO, but I wouldn’t bring it up with him again because you’ve said what you need to and these people rarely think they’ve done anything wrong

I see no problem in making a formal complaint, he needs to know what is and isn't acceptable and no form of racism is OK. He wasn't taking responsibility for what he said, it's by no means an overreaction to take it further.

I'm sorry you were confronted with this and not backed up by the others you were with.

No I think you should report it, he may not see it as racism because his black friends made that joke as well , but we also know someone might see something as a 'joke' because of wanting to fit in or not being confident enough to challenge something that actually makes them feel uncomfortable, this is not SA (maybe people can get away with it there) but the UK and we should learn to be better, more inclusive more tolerant and yes more challenging than other countries.

Do not confront him again, at all, but make a formal complaint. What a absolute shitbag of a person.

Definitely make a formal complaint. And I'm sorry you were the only one to challenge him (I assume that from your post anyway). It's not your job, as someone mixed race, to do the heavy lifting here and others around you should have spoken up

You did really well to challenge him. I agree that you should make a formal complaint now though - if you want to - rather than say anything else to him. It's completely unacceptable and the organisation should take a zero tolerance approach to that.

You were great to challenge him.

Next step is to make a formal complaint.

Nothing changes until people exercise their power to ensure equality by vocalising it.

You challenged him. He apologied. Taking it further would be overkill. What would you be wanting to achieve from a more formal complaint? Him kicked off the course?
It sounds like the guy is stupid rather than viciously racist.

@1000yellowdaisies remove yourself from this thread. Completely worthless input.

Wow. I'm sorry. That must have been really shocking for you. You have every right to be upset and you are experiencing a delayed reaction to a blatantly racist incident. I think that you have every right to make a formal complaint but I think that you should avoid interacting with him in any way.

You're talking crap.
He's a nasty piece of work and needs to be dealt with.

Maybe he can get away with that stuff in South Africa, but it's not acceptable here.

OP make an official complaint.

@1000yellowdaisies

Are you serious? As a black person I wouldn’t want him anywhere near me. You were nicer then I would have been OP.

On what grounds should he not be thrown off the course? What level of racism is unacceptable to you? What level of defending racist comments - sorry, "jokes" - is unacceptable?

If the organisation doesn't throw him off, then it's implicitly saying that these racist comments are acceptable to it.

I am mixed race. I think the fact that he is south African is pertinent here. He doesn't see racism in the same way as we do in the UK. It's awful but it's widely accepted to be true.

Hopefully you have made him aware of how racist he was being and he might think twice before making offensive comments like this again.

You did well to challenge him but I wouldn't take it further, on the basis that unfortunately he is probably doesn't know any better, and you have made him think about his attitude.

Doesn’t sound like he realised he’d been unacceptably racist

I think you you need to decide what your endgame is - what sort of outcome are you looking for? What do you hope to achivein the larger picture.

He's very likely telling the truth that it would have been a normal thing to say in SA, including among black people. In my experience Africans are much more inclined to make comments or jokes that directly reference race in a way we wouldn't. So you might want to consider that it is pretty easy for any one of us to make a faux pas in a culture different from our own.

If you accuse people of something their immediate reaction is almost always to push back. And outside of North America,Australia, and some of Europe, the idea that intent is unrelated to being racist is less accepted. I imagine he's well aware now people didn't find his joke funny.

Just out of curiosity, does your course have a "standards of conduct" policy? I've seen places provide a written policy and I've seen some instances where the class starts off by listing their class rules on a board.

The last time I was properly racially abused in the UK, it was by a white South African who refused to accept what he said was offensive.

I took it further to scare the shit out of him. Only when he realised his behaviour was offensive and wouldn't be tolerated did I allow the complaint to be dropped.

It was less about me, and more about stopping him from acting that way towards other people in the future. Until I pushed ahead with a complaint, he thought it was just funny. It damn well wasn't. Me challenging him wasn't enough to make him change his ways. If it had been, I probably wouldn't have taken it further.

Like you, OP, my white South African told me it was acceptable to make such comments in Africa. I have no idea if that's true, but it's certainly not acceptable in this country.

OP - good on you. You reacted really well, and I think you should take it up with the course leaders tomorrow. Make clear you want him to realise his behaviour is unacceptable rather than necessarily kicking him off the course. If the course leaders talk to him, that might make him realise it's not just one - woman? - kicking up a stink; no one tolerates his crappy behaviour.

God. I hate casual racism. Hate it, hate it, hate it. Some people just don't realise how awful what it is they're saying. They need to learn.

It sounds like the guy is stupid rather than viciously racist.

And the brilliant thing about making a complaint is that he can get training.

Making a formal complaint is actually great. The more people who understand what is OK and what is not... the better. It's either an opportunity for growth or he won't.

Well done for challenging him. From your description it doesn't sound like he apologised because he accepted he'd done something wrong, but to try and make you leave him alone. Therefore a formal complaint is the next step both imo and in every organisations' policies I've worked with recently. He's been unacceptably racist and doesn't recognise that at all.

Take it further!!! Or else these professional casual racists will consider it acceptable... it is not. Not in South Africa, not in America, not in the UK.

I assume he hadn't literally got off the plane from SA that morning; I assume he had previously interacted with several non South Africans in his lifetime... and therefore is well aware of how offensive that comment is in the UK (Or anywhere for that matter). He needs to be put in his place!

I would take it further, from your account of the conversation it sounds like he doesn't see a problem with what he said and would make the same "joke" again.

if It’s not funny, it’s not a joke.