Challenging racism - did I do enough? AIBU to take it further?

[Cma1988]

Im mixed-race (black-white) (relevant to the story) and I’m currently away at a residential course.

This morning one lady on the course left suddenly, we don’t know the reason, I guess something personal, and this lady is black (again, only mentioning as it’s relevant.

This evening few of us were playing cards in the lounge this evening, and I don’t even know how it even came about in conversation as I was only half-listening at this point, but one guy, (who is white South African) made a comment about the basement (we are staying in an old manor type house) and then he said “maybe that’s where Jane went,, mind you she’ll have to smile so you could see her”. There was a awkward silence and then another lady who doesn’t have English as her first language asked him what he meant, and he then explained his “joke” saying you know, you can’t see black people in the dark, only their teeth and then laughed again. I was in total shock that he could say something so horrendously racist - and worse - in front of me - as if he was saying a completely normal comment.
I challenged him saying “that’s not funny and it’s actually really racist and I can’t believe you just said that. He then went in to defend himself and justify himself saying that it was a joke, that he grew up in South Africa where he had black friends and they made that joke all the time and apparently his black friends used to make the joke too and he just brushed it off and carried on shuffling the cards. I then told him again that I was very upset by his joke and that He had shown his true colours because if he had made that joke in front of me, what would he be saying behind my (or any other person of colours) back. He then gave a poor excuse for an apology, he said sorry, but backed his sorry with more defending himself and I left and went to bed.

I’m now stewing with anger in bed, thinking I didn’t challenge him enough and feeling really hurt by his casual racism. I’m wondering if I should just leave it now, or if I should take it up again tomorrow either with him or with the course leaders? We are here together until Saturday but we will be joining together again in a few weeks for part 2 of the course and I feel that maybe he should be formally spoken to? Or am I overreacting? I really want to make a formal complaint about him. AIBU?

oh come on all the "he didn't realise it's racist" because he's South African.
Racist is racist and he knows it

Whilst I see where you are coming from, racism etc can be seen as more acceptable in some cultures even though they don't see it as such. I used to have alot of gay friends and many would openly make gay jokes, use gay slurs in jest etc.

He absolutely needs to realise that the comments he makes in SA aren’t seen the same as here.

However he’s right that comments are seen differently over there. And the reality is that for people growing up in apartheid it is different. They never knew any better because it was how they grew up, and nobody didn’t live that way iyswim.

And there definitely are terminologies that are used in other countries which aren’t here etc. e.g. people who are mixed race are called coloured. It’s not offensive over there, it’s a term used by everyone, even those who are mixed race themselves, and no, they don’t just use it because they feel they have to, it’s an accepted term there. But we don’t use it here, and so when a South African refers to someone who is mixed race as coloured over here we assume he must be racist when actually he’s just using the terms he’s grown up with and which have always been used, iyswim. So we educate rather than condemn. It’s the only way to change mindsets.

Racism is never acceptable, that it is more rampant in some places than others does not make it ok.

I also struggle with the different culture/different generation argument. Yes you are a product of your culture but my grandfather would have been well over 100 if he was alive and grew up in rural piss poor Scotland and got the cane from his school teacher because he wouldn’t agree people from the empire were lesser. Now that was because his dad had seen some shit.
the man here has the benefits of formal education, international travel and freedom and choses to remain ignorant and racist.

and this, Ladies, is why racism continues. I do hope that you aren't passing this message on to your kids (if you have them)
OP - so what if he was south african, he cannot get away with such comments. Sadly, he probably doesn't see the issue precisely because of his heritage. His excuse was the same as 'i can use the n word because i have black friends who use it.
Report him please

It sounds like the guy is stupid rather than viciously racist

All racists are stupid.

One of my acquaintances (not a friend - it's complicated) is a white South African, and I've noticed at social events of his that the tolerance level for casual racism is very different (all his friends are white SA as well). Things like "I don't agree with apartheid, BUT...." and "I'm not racist - I love white people, haha". I find it very difficult to stomach and do challenge it when I hear it. I think it's important to call it out every single time, even though it's uncomfortable to have to do it. I would definitely make a formal complaint about this guy if I were you, and I think you did really well to stand up to him in front of others.

Dont go making a formal complaint. He'll have learned nothing and you didnt achieve anything either

What is silly statement. He will learn that he can't use language like this in a public forum and that it is racist. If it is ignored, he will carry on, thinking OP was making a mountain out of a molehill.

Well done OP for taking this further. All the racist apologisers here are why he gets away with saying shit like that and thinking it's funny.

Not to sure about this. I think there's a difference between a joke/statement that relies on a stereotype and one that is simply factual. So saying all Blacks are... is clearly racist, but just stating they have dark skin isn't.

Apartheid ended in 1991. 32 years is enough to know that racism/ apartheid is unacceptable.
No excuse

hmm..so I suppose, 'You can't see blacks in the dark, only their teeth' (laugh), or 'Jane went in the basement, mind you, she'll have to smile so you can see her'.

Is that the simply factual part? and would this be joke/statement?

Tough one.

I'd definitely challenge him.

For what it's worth, not saying all South Africans are like this, but I went to a hairdresser in London over lockdown and the stylist was SA and he made several racist comments about blacks (explained away because he was from SA) - totally unprompted by me, he was asking me where I was from in London.

Turned out from google reviews he's made the same comments before (the hair salon is a well known chain).

I was disgusted at his comments and didn't engage/answer after the first one but didn't feel able to say he shouldn't say that, as I felt awkward. Now, I'd like to think I'd complain about him to the owners/reception.

@AlternativePerspective - most South Africans (and I've known a few) should be aware then when moving to a country without apartheid that certain comments are racist and shouldn't be said.

about 25 years ago I worked with a SA man who was constantly making comments about having to live in a gated community because of the danger from blacks. I told him off and said he shouldn't say that here (in London) as it's racist. Luckily he didn't really go any further into it apart from 'they were dangerous'.

Sorry you had to go through that op, I hope you managed to get a good nights sleep and it didn't play on your mind too much.

Your doing the right thing by reporting him, just because it's what he grew up with doesn't mean it's acceptable, it should be challenged each and every time, that's the only way we will ever start to see a change.

There possibly was an element of mockery, but I'm not sure that qualifies as racism. Certainly it would fall on the lower end of the spectrum.

It's a joke based on a fact rather than a stereotype. Like joking about gingers getting sunburnt easily.

He needs to know that when in UK, he's subject to UK race laws and needs to know what they are so he doesn't lose his job.

Your employer should give him a heads up.

Bravo.

I used to have alot of gay friends and many would openly make gay jokes, use gay slurs in jest etc.

But this chap is a white South African so presumably he has heard about the issues of racism there? And has noticed he's not now in South Africa and racism isn't acceptable here even if it is there? (and i can't believe that in a mixed race group, a white South African - a white any nationality - making a racist comment like that wouldn't be pulled up on it, unless he's the boss and everyone needs to suck up to hm)

Same with gay people telling gay jokes - that's up to them.

im not sure it is based on a fact. Black people are 3 dimensional sentient beings, I’ve never not notice a black person in a dark room, you know what with them actually being there breathing, moving, wearing clothes and you know not being the exact same colour as a dark room (which can also be varying levels of dark). It would be like saying you wouldn’t notice me if it was snowing unless I opened my mouth.

I (white) was talking to my neighbour (white) when another neighbour (black) drove past and my neighbour said that he has a big, shiny face

My white neighbour is in his seventies and thinks it's totally okay to say that

I agree with this

I would definitely complain. That type of "joke" isn't acceptable and I struggle to believe that he didn't know how racist it was.

not sure why posters are saying ‘well I know black people who joke about their blackness’ or ‘I have gay friends that use gay slurs’. What’s that got to do with it? . This ‘joke’ was made by a white person referencing a black person

Agreed.

Just because you can joke around like that with your friends doesnt mean it will go down well colleagues/people you dont know well

Context is alway it big part of these sort of comments

I'm from SA and I can tell you it's just as much racist there as it is here. The difference is that if it's challenged there, there are no repercussions. He most likely has friends and family who makes these types of jokes. He so openly said it in front of the op because he still has the mentality that non white people can be abused in this way, just as it is back in SA. Makes me livid, as a non white SA I can place his racist type quite confidently. Please make a complaint op, this racist needs a wake up. The fact that he tried to even justify it, just proves how much he believes he has a right to his joke. The most racist people you will ever come across are his type.

*I (white) was talking to my neighbour (white) when another neighbour (black) drove past and my neighbour said that he has a big, shiny face

My white neighbour is in his seventies and thinks it's totally okay to say that*

I am Irish and often have seen memes and comments about how white we are. It's really no different.