Challenging racism - did I do enough? AIBU to take it further?

[Cma1988]

Im mixed-race (black-white) (relevant to the story) and I’m currently away at a residential course.

This morning one lady on the course left suddenly, we don’t know the reason, I guess something personal, and this lady is black (again, only mentioning as it’s relevant.

This evening few of us were playing cards in the lounge this evening, and I don’t even know how it even came about in conversation as I was only half-listening at this point, but one guy, (who is white South African) made a comment about the basement (we are staying in an old manor type house) and then he said “maybe that’s where Jane went,, mind you she’ll have to smile so you could see her”. There was a awkward silence and then another lady who doesn’t have English as her first language asked him what he meant, and he then explained his “joke” saying you know, you can’t see black people in the dark, only their teeth and then laughed again. I was in total shock that he could say something so horrendously racist - and worse - in front of me - as if he was saying a completely normal comment.
I challenged him saying “that’s not funny and it’s actually really racist and I can’t believe you just said that. He then went in to defend himself and justify himself saying that it was a joke, that he grew up in South Africa where he had black friends and they made that joke all the time and apparently his black friends used to make the joke too and he just brushed it off and carried on shuffling the cards. I then told him again that I was very upset by his joke and that He had shown his true colours because if he had made that joke in front of me, what would he be saying behind my (or any other person of colours) back. He then gave a poor excuse for an apology, he said sorry, but backed his sorry with more defending himself and I left and went to bed.

I’m now stewing with anger in bed, thinking I didn’t challenge him enough and feeling really hurt by his casual racism. I’m wondering if I should just leave it now, or if I should take it up again tomorrow either with him or with the course leaders? We are here together until Saturday but we will be joining together again in a few weeks for part 2 of the course and I feel that maybe he should be formally spoken to? Or am I overreacting? I really want to make a formal complaint about him. AIBU?

I also agree with taking it further. I know a lot of white (Afrikaans) South Africans and the casual racism you're talking about is very common. He may not have been meaning to offend, and he may not have realized his comment was racist, but he absolutely should be educated to know that what goes in SA (hardly a country to model what is acceptable on!) does not go in the UK.

Oh OP, what a horrible, distressing experience for you. I think you did really well. Especially as you must have been in shock, and it's very difficult to know what to say or do in the moment. You did brilliantly.
He sounds very ignorant. I don't know how long he's been in the UK for? But if for any significant length of time, he should have figured out by now, that such 'jokes' are totally unacceptable here. I wonder if reporting him would get the message across to him? Then he'd know never to do it again.
I had an experience recently of someone using a terrible racist word in my presence 'as a joke'. I was shocked and felt actual repulsion. I told him he should never use the word, and that it was offensive. To be fair, he apologised, and I hope he got the message. But I too wondered after if I could have done or said more. It's just so difficult in the moment, when in shock.
For context, I'm not black or mixed race, and I felt very hurt (bigotry is insulting to my fellow humans) so I can only imagine how much more hurtful it must be for a person of colour.
I'm so sorry you had such an upsetting experience. Sending you love and solidarity OP. Hopefully one day we'll live in a world free of bigotry and ignorance. Take care

Yes, take it further. Where I am there would probably be a process that involved a conversation between him and the organisation leader/s then, depending how that went, a sort of restorative justice session where you can tell him whatever you need/want to and he listens and responds to let you know what he’s doing to ensure he doesn’t cause the same hurt in future.

If management were not satisfied that he had grasped the enormity of his offensive behaviour they would not allow it to proceed to a conversation with you. He would be let go.

I’m so sorry this happened to you and well done for challenging him. I hope you take it further and that it’s handled professionally.

Yes, you need to let your organisation know formally - he needs to have training on this to work here, what he said is a disciplinary offence (and would be viewed by my organisation as very serious, possibly fireable)

If you're in an old Manor House it's an organisation you work for (like a church?) rather than a uni course?

"It sounds like the guy is stupid rather than viciously racist."

Yeah i agree here. (And i am not white) he sounds stupid but i wouldnt waste my time on him. Its not gonna achieve anything.

If you wanted to do anything still, then educate him. Dont go making a formal complaint. He'll have learned nothing and you didnt achieve anything either.

Start a dialogue with him. Communicate. Educate.

Yep, take it further.

My friend used to make that joke about herself, she is VERY dark even among her own family... but thats HERS to make about herself, her choice, not mine.

I would not dream, not even if my friend says its ok, because it crosses a line.

And as for 'he's from SA he doesn't understand'.. bollocks bollocks and thrice bollocks. He knows he could get away with it there, but he knows its wrong all the same.

SO yes, take it further because until people do, he will just learn to pick his audience more carefully, he will not learn that he is wrong and offensive.

It is not a black person's job to educate a racist out of their racism. He can educate his own damn self.

Making a complaint will have the very obvious benefit of driving home the point that his behaviour is unacceptable in the UK.

Well done, OP. You aren't his mummy or his teacher. If he can't take your words on board, escalate and let someone else do the 'educating.

Don't know if this helps but, I used to work in local government (retired now), there was always a bit at the end of every course about equal opportunities. If yours has that , could you have a quiet word with the speaker/facilitator /what have you, and ask them to bring in 'casual racism'? That way everyone can contribute , he can listen and understand why his comment was totally unacceptable.

I’ve heard someone make this joke about her own husband before, when looking through holiday photos! He seemed to think it was funny but it’s a strange casual racism.

We all come across people who are just ignorant or out of touch, and don’t mean to be nasty, but really they should know better by now. If you are called out on ‘innocently’ making an offensive comment, then the natural reaction is to feel ashamed, make a sincere apology and learn from it.

If the man had genuinely taken it on board and offered a believable apology then you could probably leave it at that. But as he didn’t seem to get it, you should report it to the supervisors - perhaps explain that you’re not looking to get him kicked off the course but feel they should model an anti racist policy. They could then give him a warning - explain this behaviour won’t be tolerated, and if it does happen again, he’ll be out.

Formal complaint. No doubt.

You'll get a lot of truck with this on MN but not in the wider community .

So casual racism is OK, it's just the "vicious" type that isn't?

WTF does that mean?

I know you mean well but “a bit at the end of the course” as a means of educating a participant who has been grossly offensive is so inadequate.

Boundaries should be established before the course begins, what is expected, a code of conduct.

And addressing the whole group as an afterthought to minimise discomfort of the perpetrator is not fair to the other participants and let’s face it, why should he be shielded from the discomfort of facing the consequences of his behaviour?

His comments were dreadful, there is no place for attitudes or “jokes” like that in a civilised society. Yes he’s a white South African but
he is now in the UK and needs to observe UK professional standards.

OP I don’t think you need to justify why you are thinking of taking it further. I’m glad you got angry. Stay angry until he’s put it right or has been put right.

I think him being from SA is relevant here, because he was not in SA. If he wants to benefit of the learning here (and work? And lifestyle if he’s planing to stay after the course) then he has to live a way that is acceptable here. There’s places I won’t go because I won’t conform to the way they live.

I’ve heard this bullshit ‘joke’ often enough and im
white so it’s not some localised in joke. It’s great that the other student asked for an explanation because there can be zero doubt about exactly what he meant. He made a racist statement and then explained why it was racist in front of a group of people.

I agree with this, I hope you’re ok. You did so well to confront him.

Morning all, thank you for all your responses, much appreciated. I have decided that Inman going to take it further and talk to one of the leaders or programme coordinators this morning after breakfast, and ask about making a formal incident. I am guessing they have a anti-racism, or equality and diversity policy as most places do. Thank you for the reassurance that I did not overreact, I’m still stemming about it even now! And I don’t really want to even see him today.

Yeah it’s a church-leadership type training, I don’t want to give any more details as it will be very outing, but that’s what makes it worse in a way.

oh come on all the "he didn't realise it's racist" because he's South African.
Racist is racist and he knows it.

OP well done on the challenge. I'd take it further because it is obviously a difficult conversation for you to have with someone.

Good luck. I hope they respond appropriately.

Yes you should report it to your manager or HR. The comment is clearly indefensible and the fact he tried to defend it worsens the crime.

Where and when I grew up, racist jokes were common. I am now an adult, and feel quite sickened by some of the memories I have from childhood. I certainly don't think back fondly and enjoy the same "jokes" I did as a child, much less repeat them to colleagues assuming they are funny today.

Unquestionably you would not be unreasonable to report it up. If we tolerate this crap it never goes away.

As it's too late for boundaries to be established at the beginning, spelling it out at any point might be better, might it not? BTW , I agree that what he said was racist, and he should be reported , but he should also be included in a general discussion about appropriate behaviours in respect of other issues. I mean dealing with people with disabilities etc, because he probably has no idea about that either, does he?

I don't think anything further will be gained from challenging him. You have already had the argument with him and it doesnt sound like he is going to change his mind. I think pointing it out infront of colleagues is probably going to have more of an effect on him than further training etc but it is probably the right thing to do to tell his employer

Well done you. Ignorance needs educating. Stupidity is not a get-out of consequences clause (though it has perhaps served him well previously).

In my experience Africans are much more inclined to make comments or jokes that directly reference race in a way we wouldn't. So you might want to consider that it is pretty easy for any one of us to make a faux pas in a culture different from our own

I used to work with alot of black people and many would make black racist remarks and jokes against black people. One woman used to say that she'd tell her daughter ''I'm the big black bitch in this hose, don't forget it.''

The others,all male, would jokingly and sometimes seriously use the n word.