To expect MIL to work

[Lillonely]

Apologies for double posting but DH and I are getting into a Barney on this one.

This follows on from my previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4562595-polygamy-first-family-and-financial-trouble-need-some-perspective-here?page=1

Think I’ve linked that correctly, apologies if not…

So, I thought I found utopia for this solution til we got MIL to pension/ pension credit age. My mum knew a lady (who also knows MIL) who lends a hand in some restaurants in kitchen (well actually several, the family own a few Indian restaurants), they got her a good hygiene certificate and she does bits like prep samosas, make a few Asian desserts and then some cleaning, bit of prep, well she mentioned that they’d take on another person. The lady is the restaurant chain owners son (same age-ish as MIL) MIL wouldn’t have to take a bus, the owner would pick up her and his mum and take them. They could only offer like 16 hrs a week across the few restaurants but they all speak her mother tongue and then she could claim working tax credit. It will build up her NI too so she can claim a pension later.

i thought this sounds like a great idea? No status thing in question because she’s working with a lady (an aquitance who she knows ) of a similar age, definitely won’t be graft (it’s more of a favour), but DH thinks it’s unfair to ask her to go out and work? But given the situation this seems like the best option, could I get some thoughts here?

is it unreasonable for her, given the circumstances to feign working? Would be maybe 3 mornings/ afternoons a week?

thank you all, your advice was invaluable before!

lillonely I really feel for you being in this really difficult position. It feels as if you are the only person trying to be practical while your MIL, FIL, 2nd wife (I know they're not legally married but that's completely irrelevant when it would need your MIL to act to change anything) and even your DH are all refusing to recognise the reality of the situation.

I looked at the other thread but only your posts. I can't believe that there were posters (the 2nd wife perhaps?) suggesting you should join in with impoverishing yourselves to support your MIL or that your MIL helped with childcare when she was so neglectful to your DH, even aside from your own reason why you don't leave her alone with your children.

Did anyone suggest contacting the JCWI?

www.jcwi.org.uk/Pages/Category/legal-advice

They have an advice line.

It's a shame the sharia court isn't an option. Would the Muslim Women's Council of Britain be able to help? I don't mean in terms of changing the will but by explaining to your MIL that she needs to sort out her position legally in terms of benefits, especially in terms of being able to get a pension when she is 66. Alternatively, are there any solicitors in the area you live in who specialise in these situations?

I wish your MIL had the sort of friends who would give her sensible advice but I am sure they just know her as the good 1st wife who has that nice son who looks after her.

I also wish your DH realised how badly both parents have let him down, and that cultural obligations work two ways. However, neither of these things are likely to happen so I should concentrate on saying something constructive!

I suspect your MIL will refuse to talk to anyone and they will tell you that they can only help if she's willing. Unfortunately your DH has had a lifetime of being bullied by his parents. The awful thing is that if he'd walked out of the door at 18 and gone no contact either your MIL or your FIL would have been forced to do something. He probably would find it helpful to have some counselling. It is so sad thinking of the cold little boy who only had rice to eat and who later on got himself into debt to help them. It must make it very hard for him to set some limits now in terms of what he can do.

Of course she should work but she should have learned the language as well, not least to support your dh. I can see in many ways she has been dealt a bad hand. I assume she came here as part of an arranged marriage and was then or felt betrayed.

However it was her responsibility to have made the best of a bad job. I almost wonder from what you have said op if she has some genuine learning difficulties?

No-one's a winner here but you must be a good person because I think I'd have run a mile from your dh.

I’m not sure the primary issue here is the MIL working (which I agree on paper is reasonable and also likely difficult for MIL to take on board) but the relationship between her and her son and the cultural expectations around this. Have you tried to understand this part better? Have you asked DH how he would feel if his MIl did start work? What would this mean for him? Can he identify a compromise or easier starting point?

OP I think it's pointless asking on here, because everyone is looking at it from a western POV. In theory, of course she should work to pay her way, but in practice it is entirely a different matter.

She has NEVER worked a day in her life, and from what you've said she sees it as your dh's duty to support her and he sees it that way too. Don't underestimate what a daunting task it would be for her to go into the workforce. 16 hours a week at NMW is not likely to meet UC conditions, assuming she has no disabilities. They are likely to want her working FT and may say she has to find another job.

You have to withdraw from 'managing' solutions to this situation and let your DH step up. Let him know that if he wants to support MIL financially then that is up to him, but he will need to get a second job as YOU are not going to shoulder the burden.

I read your previous thread. I have a feeling even if your DH is brave enough to ask her, your lovely MIL is likely to shame him for even suggesting it and remind him it is his job to look after her.
I don't care how unfortunate her life was with being uneducated, dumped by a husband.. She is horrible to her own son and there is no culture in the world that would support it.
However, your problem is not her, it is your DH. He can't earn more money, he is still in debt, he burdened you with his mother who was/is awful to you and all the financial implications. Him not doing anything is actively causing you harm. That is his choice.
I feel for you OP, I can think of only 1 solution - divorce (yours, not MIL)

Having read your OP, I’d say your mil will refuse to work because she’s lazy/lacks confidence and your dp will enable her.

OP. I read your first thread and now this one.

Unfortunately you now have a DH problem.

He is showing you who is his priority... his mother.

He is willing to put you and your DC through hardship.

I think you need to consider your own options as you're going to end up financially screwed

If she needs the pension credits she'd be mad not to. Does she want a reduced pension.

DH thinks it’s unfair to ask her to go out and work?

I read your previous thread, and thought then as I think now that a lot of your problems arise from DH - especially as he believes it's up to you to subsidise this nonsense

It's true that her lack of "outside" experience isn't helping MIL, but it couldn't be clearer that she simply doesn't want to improve her own situation, and that it's easier to bleat, pretend helplessness and leave everyone else to do the lifting

It's not something I could put up with personally (how will you feel if/when DH insists she moves in?) but only you can decide if you want to continue in this.
Because frankly I doubt you'll ever persuade either of them to change

Just read your other thread. Omg. What a shit situation.

@mubarak86 this is true. I didn't type it or post it but I'm wondering how she could have avoided learning English. I was going to suggest learning english on duolingo. But her whole attitude must have been just feed me like I'm a pet over the last 30 + years

In most cultures where children suppprting parents is the norm, it is often financially viable only due to multi generational living. In your case that is clearly not an option as mil was abusive towards you

I agree about that multi generational living can make this easier, but not necessarily that it wouldn't be an option because of MIL's abuse to OP

Let's not assume that DH would care, or if he does that he'd be prepared to do anything about it

He wants to continue to pay for his mother. You’re going to end up being the bad guy here. If I was you I’d consider leaving or having separate money and let him support his mother if he wants to.

OP this sounds so stressful for all of you, and can't be healthy for you or your children 🤗. I totally respect and admire your DH for his dedication to his DM, however, I think it's time he began to rebalance things and consider his own children too. It's understandable he is reluctant to have conversations with her, it sounds as though he has experienced a lifetime of neglect and as such will find this very difficult. Is there anyone within his community who could act as an informal mediator for you and him to discuss this with? (Sorry I'm not entirely sure which religion so don't know specific titles). Preferably someone sympathetic to both sides of the equation, but with their head screwed on enough to back you up? After that, possibly some counselling for him because he will have not only the neglect but also to process the fact that to care for his wife and children he is going to have to take steps which may alienate him from his parents. This is not him being unreasonable, it is them. I would suggest he speaks to his DF first, to tell him that he is going to set his stall out with DM and it is not negotiable. Make sure DF is clear what the terms will be. Then to DM - I would suggest you go with him if possible (she doesn't like you anyway so you aren't losing anything, and it will be good support for DH) - and set out your terms. I.e. we will not be selling our house, you will not be moving in with us, we will not be paying for things for you. We will continue to help you as much or little as you want e.g cleaning, shopping etc... but we will not be contributing financially so you and DF need to get your thinking caps on as to what you will do if he dies before you. Whether that means working, benefits, whatever is entirely up to you but we will absolutely not be making any financial contributions, or allowing you to stay with us. Be prepared for histrionics, and the guilt trips, and the blackmail (oh my goodness what would our community think of you abandoning your DM etc...). Stand firm, say your piece and leave. When she is ready to come to you she will, or not. That is HER choice. Also be prepared that if she does maintain contact this will come up repeatedly - grey rock is definitely the way to go. "DM I've already been crystal clear there is no money coming this way nor are you moving in with us. As I said, you need to sort this. Now, let's move on."

Given that your MIL is trapped inside her own world and unable to communicate with anybody but her son, she must have been terrified every day of her life living alone in this country. Obviously this intense terror is what is stopping her exploring the possibilities of the world outside her door. She can’t read or speak English, she can’t bring herself to take a bus to join in life in any way and she can’t do necessary life admin to get by or to contribute - yet she wouldn’t be considered to be without capacity if assessed as she is fit and healthy. Therefore she has to be forced to face this dilemma at some stage and get over it if she is to remain in the UK. If your DH foolishly delays this consequence any longer then he is doing her (and his own family) a terrible disservice. He can not leave his mother in limbo living in no-man’s land between two cultures, and refusing to accept her obligations to live here successfully.
If she continues to resist all reasonable offers of help to help her own situation, including this seemingly perfect job solution, then I can’t help wondering if there could be old friends or preferably family in her country of origin that she would prefer to return to, as it seems she is only existing in fear in the uk, afraid of her own shadow.

Op, looking through this from a cultural perspective it is clear that your DH never ever has any intention of asking his mother to work and you will alienate yourself from him for even suggesting such a thing.

So I suspect an uncomfortable likely truth in the matter which you won't be happy to hear. But please hear me out.

I think it's highly likely your DH has known all along that he will never ask his mother to work.

Your DH knew he would need to marry wisely to help share this burden.

So he married you, not just for love but also for cultural expectations.

You are used to working, indeed you expect to work and you are happy to be the modern working woman helping to provide for your family.

You have a financially sound background, you are well qualified and you are earning a good amount of money.

This would have been an attractive proposition to both your DH and his father and the rest of the family on his side.

They would have discussed his marriage to you as financially indirectly supporting your mil by default which would relieve fil of this pressure.

I believe your fil and your DH are in cahoots about this.

Your DH playing ignorant about his mother's lack of pension is a white lie ( in his eyes).

He wants to keep you on his side so he will say whatever he can to keep you on his side.

But this pursuit of his mil to work will be preposterous to him and he will not contemplate it and never will even if he has gone along with the idea in theory to deflect the attention away from his role in the status quo.

He won't be honest with you on this matter and he is unlikely to admit, oh yes, your earning potential was the deciding factor for me to marry you in the first place.

To be fair to him, it might be a surprise to him that knowing the culture and being a modern woman, you feel strongly about not wanting to help him share this financial burden, especially as you don't actually do any fetching and carrying for her.

As I said on the first thread, his first loyalty will be his mother, then his DC then you, if the push comes to the shove.

He knows you are invested in him and your DC.

So if you are so adamant in not taking over the financial burden with your DH on this matter you would need to divorce because there is absolutely no way your Dh would ask your mil to divorce fil.

How does that scenario look to you?

Would you have enough money to support your DC in the way you would want to if you cut your DH and mil off?

I suppose the way you could go about this if you didn't want to divorce would be to separate your finances completely and have nothing coming in to the joint account for your DH to syphon off to your mil.

And then you could put your money in your parents' account so that they could be seen as paying for your DC's activities so that they don't lose out.

It would need you double crossing your DH financially like he has done to you all these years.

Protect your own money. As far as your assets are concerned, beware that if you divorce he would be entitled to half of yours including pension so this might not be in your best interests of you are the higher earner.

Anyway op, you have a lot to think about and you would need financial and legal advice of your own now that you know your DH is not wanting to work with you on the matter.

He quite plainly wants you to cough up, take on board his responsibilities to his mother uncomplainingly and stop embarrassing him.

Hope I'm wrong op.

Just wondering what would happen to your MIL if she was in the country where her family/culture originated from and in these circumstances, ie would she have to go out and work?

My SIL was brought up in a similar situation, DF had two wives, her DM and family were the one who were tossed out and received nothing. In those circumstances it's expected the wife goes out and works long hours to earn money.

Side line to my reply - this wouldn't happen here, but the family used to stay at home on their own, but as her DSs got older, they had to go out to work as well, leaving SIL on her own - fortunately in her country the state provides a sort of boarding school education for those on their own (for which she had to walk two days on her own with her belongings).

Spot on with all of it, Vijia, and most especially the bit about OP's situation being attractive to the family

Strange that some will discourage female independence yet be so quick to seize the benefits, but there it is

@Vijia gives sound advice and really well articulated.

Seriously consider what's best for you and your DC.

Her having squirrelled away money for her pilgrimage instead of paying to buy state pension credits would infuriate me. ON top of her general entitlement, that would make me crazy. I don't know how you are staying sane @Lillonely

I think the H could benefit from a few therapy sessions in advance of taking a harder line with his mother. He's obviously too enmeshed in the cultural expectations to do it now but therapy can help ''un'' enmesh.

I live in an area where 50% of the population are from asian cultures. I'm still always shocked how many of the elderly ( and sometimes not even that elderly) cannot speak english at all. The older women even if they do work, often work in factories/ sweatshops where everyone else speaks their asian language and they never have reason to learn english. There is absolutely no integration.

@ChairPose9to5 it's not uncommon for older Asian women not to have any English, even though some of them have been here 40-50 years. They lived amongst their own communities, shopped in Asian supermarkets and used children as interpreters where necessary. They didn't have to speak English so didn't have any incentive to do so. The MIL is illiterate in her own language so learning a foreign language would be very daunting for her.

@Babyroobs I'm a Muslim so know lots of cultures, and I have never known any community to have a reluctance to even try to integrate (even in a very small way) than SE Asian women. I think there is a lot of fear and even an inferiority complex that stems from colonialism. I honestly haven't seen it in any other ethnic community.

It's not so much the Muslim communities, more often the older Hindu ladies. And similar to op's MIL, I have had client this week in my work who has been left deserted as her husband has taken a new wife ! Also had a colleague who long suspected her Muslim dad had another family somewhere else. She and her siblings grew up in absolute poverty because of this. I think it's more common than many realise.