Page 10 | Who is being unreasonable?

User2392 · 2022-06-06T07:25:26+00:00

I know you all hate these types of threads but I wanted to keep it as unbiased as I could so apologies! Olivia has a child with Paul, they are not together and Paul has another younger child with his wife Lizzy. Olivia and Lizzy have always gotten on well enough, not the best of friends but amicable and as the years have gone on, friendly. Olivia's child has recently told her that he feels since his sister was born that Lizzy and her family don't care about him as much and are always doing things with his sister and not him. This upset Olivia. Olivia and Paul don't really get on so she decided to send a message to Lizzy directly just asking if they could talk about it. The message was polite but to the point. Lizzy replied saying that she is sorry he feels that way but her daughter will always be number one to both her and her family (her parents, grandparents, siblings etc..) and that if there are any issues with their child, Olivia should take it up with Paul. She also added that it was none of Olivia's business how much or what Lizzy does with her own daughter and she won't be made to feel like she has to justify it. The message was also polite but obviously Lizzy wasn't happy. Who's unreasonable? (Flipped a coin for the vote so don't read anything into that) YABU - Olivia shouldn't have sent the message in the first place. YANBU - Lizzy's reply was cruel.

Burgoo · 08/06/2022 19:55

What's up with this passive, avoidant communication style?
She should have just called and spoken to Paul about it. Why get the wife involved? Its not really her business or problem.

I am actually rather impressed by the directness of the response TBH. Clear, to the point and not sugar coating it.

I wonder if Olivia's communication with Paul has always been like this and whether maybe this is why the relationship didn't continue.

Jesus are we all 13 year olds!? Why can't people be adult.

User39498 · 08/06/2022 19:57

Tandora · 08/06/2022 13:45

They need to be taught whether it is worth being upset about or not

”Belittling or criticizing a child’s emotions is telling them that they are not allowed to feel “incorrectly”…Children of dismissive parents are at a higher risk of developing mental disorders such as depression”
www.parentingforbrain.com/emotion-dismissing-parent/

what is your definition of family

I think family is more defined by social, legal, caregiving ties , rather than by DNA.

Wow. Being taught whether it is worth being upset about is not belittling or critising! What a leap...

User39498 · 08/06/2022 20:04

Tandora · 08/06/2022 14:14

The difference here is that you just think he's right to be upset

No- its not a question of whether he is right to be upset or not. He is upset, and I don’t think that “teaching him not to be” will help. I think being upset that your parents won’t get you a pony and being upset that your step parent who you live with 50% no longer cares about you, and your sibling is getting preferential treatment, are two very different types of upset. The former has not been know you cause long term damage to a child’s sense of self worth/ esteem.

Again, incredible! Lizzy and her parents obviously do still care about DSS as according by to OP the GP still take DSS out...

more likely to damage a child’s sense of worth by agreeing with them it equates to how much their step grand parents take them out rather than explaining the situation and how much they are loved by Paul and Lizzie...

Tandora · 08/06/2022 20:08

User39498 · 08/06/2022 19:57

Wow. Being taught whether it is worth being upset about is not belittling or critising! What a leap...

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It absolutely is belittling- these attitudes are all over this thread:
eg World doesn’t revolve around him/ shouldn’t be pandered to/ my child feels unloved if he has to go to bed early and doesn’t get pizza/ there’s not actually a problem here/ children are irrational / life doesn’t revolve around his every little whim/ probably Lizzie is treating him just the same as before/ Lizzie and grandparents are really kind to him/ he’s just upset because he didn’t get to go on a couple of outings which wouldn’t have be age appropriate anyway, etc etc etc.
Theres barely a single post that is taking the son’s perspective seriously/ treating it with concern.

Tandora · 08/06/2022 20:12

User39498 · 08/06/2022 20:04

Again, incredible! Lizzy and her parents obviously do still care about DSS as according by to OP the GP still take DSS out...

more likely to damage a child’s sense of worth by agreeing with them it equates to how much their step grand parents take them out rather than explaining the situation and how much they are loved by Paul and Lizzie...

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The DS said that he doesn’t feel like Lizzie and her family care about him anymore since his sibling was born. That’s what started the altercation that this whole thread is about. This is the reality of the boy’s feelings. The adults can either treat these feelings with concern, or they can dismiss them as obviously untrue and tell him he is unreasonable to feel that way and he should change his feelings.

whumpthereitis · 08/06/2022 20:29

Teaching him to manage his expectations is not belittling or dismissing him. He is entitled to his feelings, but he is not entitled to have anyone else’s feelings or relationships be dictated by them.

There may not currently be a legal agreement in play, but dicking around with contact is one good way of making one necessary. You may have a lot of opinions as a mother, but you’re an equal parent to the father and thus have no right to make decisions unilaterally.

anyway, multiple people have been repeating themselves at you, myself included, and it’s getting a bit fucking boring tbh. Like I said before; they’re not difficult concepts to grasp at all, so I’m assuming you’re being deliberately obtuse. Have fun with that.

SemperIdem · 08/06/2022 20:44

Tandora · 08/06/2022 19:51

I didn’t say she should “unilaterally” change anything, and also I have no idea why people are assuming there’s some kind of legal contract? Maybe there’s an amicable agreement that has worked until now.

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Yes, I was referring to an amicable agreement being turned into a court order in my post.

Unilaterally changing a long standing agreement based on a child having their nose put out of joint by not being the one and only is a sure fire way to have the entire situation become most unpleasant.

Thehop · 08/06/2022 20:49

User2392 · 06/06/2022 08:48

Have you any examples the child gave?

The two given in Olivia's message were about their birthdays, Lizzy's child had a big fuss made by her Lizzy and her family and Olivia's child didn't in comparison.

And there was a trip out recently that Lizzy's parents took her child to when Olivia's son was there that he'd of liked to go on but wasn't invited and stayed home with Lizzy and Paul.

Both those seem fine.

User39498 · 08/06/2022 21:23

Tandora · 08/06/2022 20:12

The DS said that he doesn’t feel like Lizzie and her family care about him anymore since his sibling was born. That’s what started the altercation that this whole thread is about. This is the reality of the boy’s feelings. The adults can either treat these feelings with concern, or they can dismiss them as obviously untrue and tell him he is unreasonable to feel that way and he should change his feelings.

Show quote history

The OP said the DSS said He feels like Paul and Lizzie don’t care about him and you said they don’t care about him, 2 very different things.

the most likely scenario is that a 10 year old was a single child with his dads, Mum’s and step mums full attention for 7 years. He then has a sibling and that is a massive adjustment, without mentioning the fact he has a blended family. He now has to learn to find his new place in a different family. He’s lost his confidence and the best thing his parents and step mum can do is not change the reality of the fact his step mum isn’t his mum and so they won’t have a son mother relationship but help him accept and grow in the family he has got, that from the information given love him very much.

His step mum likely loves him and hopes he will have a strong bond with her dsd, but equally needs to look after her 3 year old at a challenging age and maybe even relies on her parents taking the three year old so she gets some kind of a break every weekend because she is exhausted.

Paul is probably exhausted from working and having a three year old and is looking forward to watching a film or chilling out with his 10 year old son when they visit and doesn’t think twice about the son staying in because assumes he will be pleased to see him, and just misread the situation

Olivia is probably trying to look out for her son and worried he will miss out and not be prioritised, and hears her son is struggling and instead of looking at the positives (that lizzy and Paul stayed at home with you because they love you) understandably saw her son upset and read the negatives, which DSS picks up on and thinks he is being pushed out more.

no one has done anything wrong, no one is to blame and the focus shouldn’t be on changing behaviour but making sure the children see the positives in staying home with their father and having quality time together rather than going out and so on.

MichelleScarn · 08/06/2022 22:05

@User39498 absolutely wins mn for me on this thread with last post.

(Although far too rational and sensible! 😁)

thing47 · 08/06/2022 23:10

But the son considered it to be a fun activity so obviously was age appropriate?
also if your step child lives with you 50%, I don’t think you get to opt out and you ought to treat him like his sibling.

Young children might deem all sorts of thing are appropriate which are not! And might want to do/try things which aren't suitable for a whole range of reasons. Do you let your young children do whatever they want on the basis that they have decided it sounds like fun? Of course not, that's for their parents to decide.
On occasion I took 1 DC out, on occasion 2 and on occasion all 3 – are you seriously saying that parents are wrong to do that? It makes no difference whether the 10 year old is DS or DSS in this scenario.

And actually you are wrong. An adult does get to opt out, I'm afraid. Whether they should, well that's another question entirely, but they most certainly can.

dancebob1980 · 09/06/2022 00:37

Don't know what O put in the message, but from my perspective L married P, presumably knowing he previously had a son. Therefore, in my eyes, she took on responsibility for his son, or at least accepted him as part of her immediate family.

We are very big on fairness in our family. If one child in the household is getting lots of treats or trips, but not the other, then you even things up to make them fair by given the other child special attention too.

So, the grandparents may not want to take the step-GS out, but P and L should be making the effort to make sure he does not feel bad. If he is there 50% of the time, they need to make the effort - take the opportunity of the daughter being out to do something special with him, etc, even if it is not joining his sister on the trip. If the son feels he got more attention from his sister's GPs before (and let's be honest, he probably was in the "honeymoon phase" of the new family and relationship), then L and P should be addressing that by either asking GPs to be mindful and include them more in his celebrations etc or balancing the scales with other attention to make it up to him.

TBH, P sounds quite unpleasant, and I am not impressed by L and her family either. L could say "my parents are eager to spend time with their GD, but let's discuss how we can strike a balance or take steps so that he is not so hurt" rather than this talk of "putting my (biological) child first"! Who does that when there are two children in the house?

diddl · 09/06/2022 07:58

rather than this talk of "putting my (biological) child first"! Who does that when there are two children in the house?

Perhaps an honest step mother who feels that she & her family are being got at when the child's other biological parent isn't mentioned at all!

famagusta · 09/06/2022 08:01

@dancebob1980

rather than this talk of "putting my (biological) child first"! Who does that when there are two children in the house?

Without even a nano second of hesitation…. Me!!!

MichelleScarn · 09/06/2022 08:34

famagusta · 09/06/2022 08:01

@dancebob1980

rather than this talk of "putting my (biological) child first"! Who does that when there are two children in the house?

Without even a nano second of hesitation…. Me!!!

Can imagine most people would!

famagusta · 09/06/2022 08:45

Not according to @dancebob1980 !

Tandora · 09/06/2022 08:59

whumpthereitis · 08/06/2022 20:29

Teaching him to manage his expectations is not belittling or dismissing him. He is entitled to his feelings, but he is not entitled to have anyone else’s feelings or relationships be dictated by them.

There may not currently be a legal agreement in play, but dicking around with contact is one good way of making one necessary. You may have a lot of opinions as a mother, but you’re an equal parent to the father and thus have no right to make decisions unilaterally.

anyway, multiple people have been repeating themselves at you, myself included, and it’s getting a bit fucking boring tbh. Like I said before; they’re not difficult concepts to grasp at all, so I’m assuming you’re being deliberately obtuse. Have fun with that.

No need to swear, and I personally don’t think I’m the one being obtuse!

Tandora · 09/06/2022 09:03

User39498 · 08/06/2022 21:23

The OP said the DSS said He feels like Paul and Lizzie don’t care about him and you said they don’t care about him, 2 very different things.

the most likely scenario is that a 10 year old was a single child with his dads, Mum’s and step mums full attention for 7 years. He then has a sibling and that is a massive adjustment, without mentioning the fact he has a blended family. He now has to learn to find his new place in a different family. He’s lost his confidence and the best thing his parents and step mum can do is not change the reality of the fact his step mum isn’t his mum and so they won’t have a son mother relationship but help him accept and grow in the family he has got, that from the information given love him very much.

His step mum likely loves him and hopes he will have a strong bond with her dsd, but equally needs to look after her 3 year old at a challenging age and maybe even relies on her parents taking the three year old so she gets some kind of a break every weekend because she is exhausted.

Paul is probably exhausted from working and having a three year old and is looking forward to watching a film or chilling out with his 10 year old son when they visit and doesn’t think twice about the son staying in because assumes he will be pleased to see him, and just misread the situation

Olivia is probably trying to look out for her son and worried he will miss out and not be prioritised, and hears her son is struggling and instead of looking at the positives (that lizzy and Paul stayed at home with you because they love you) understandably saw her son upset and read the negatives, which DSS picks up on and thinks he is being pushed out more.

no one has done anything wrong, no one is to blame and the focus shouldn’t be on changing behaviour but making sure the children see the positives in staying home with their father and having quality time together rather than going out and so on.

Show quote history

No I didn’t I was simply describing what the child was upset about. Neither of us have insight into how Lizzie feels in her heart so I can’t possibly comment on that
(although her text message response to Olivia , shutting the conversation down , certainly did not demonstrate caring).

Tandora · 09/06/2022 09:05

no one has done anything wrong, no one is to blame and the focus shouldn’t be on changing behaviour but making sure the children see the positives in staying home

So nobody has to change anything except the child, who should be required to change his feelings (“see the positives in staying home”).

Tandora · 09/06/2022 09:07

dancebob1980 · 09/06/2022 00:37

Don't know what O put in the message, but from my perspective L married P, presumably knowing he previously had a son. Therefore, in my eyes, she took on responsibility for his son, or at least accepted him as part of her immediate family.

We are very big on fairness in our family. If one child in the household is getting lots of treats or trips, but not the other, then you even things up to make them fair by given the other child special attention too.

So, the grandparents may not want to take the step-GS out, but P and L should be making the effort to make sure he does not feel bad. If he is there 50% of the time, they need to make the effort - take the opportunity of the daughter being out to do something special with him, etc, even if it is not joining his sister on the trip. If the son feels he got more attention from his sister's GPs before (and let's be honest, he probably was in the "honeymoon phase" of the new family and relationship), then L and P should be addressing that by either asking GPs to be mindful and include them more in his celebrations etc or balancing the scales with other attention to make it up to him.

TBH, P sounds quite unpleasant, and I am not impressed by L and her family either. L could say "my parents are eager to spend time with their GD, but let's discuss how we can strike a balance or take steps so that he is not so hurt" rather than this talk of "putting my (biological) child first"! Who does that when there are two children in the house?

Absolutely this.

Tandora · 09/06/2022 09:09

diddl · 09/06/2022 07:58

rather than this talk of "putting my (biological) child first"! Who does that when there are two children in the house?

Perhaps an honest step mother who feels that she & her family are being got at when the child's other biological parent isn't mentioned at all!

yep and completely centering herself in the process, thus demonstrating the alleged lack of concern for her DSS.

Tandora · 09/06/2022 09:14

thing47 · 08/06/2022 23:10

But the son considered it to be a fun activity so obviously was age appropriate?
also if your step child lives with you 50%, I don’t think you get to opt out and you ought to treat him like his sibling.

Young children might deem all sorts of thing are appropriate which are not! And might want to do/try things which aren't suitable for a whole range of reasons. Do you let your young children do whatever they want on the basis that they have decided it sounds like fun? Of course not, that's for their parents to decide.
On occasion I took 1 DC out, on occasion 2 and on occasion all 3 – are you seriously saying that parents are wrong to do that? It makes no difference whether the 10 year old is DS or DSS in this scenario.

And actually you are wrong. An adult does get to opt out, I'm afraid. Whether they should, well that's another question entirely, but they most certainly can.

But there is nothing in the OP to indicate the outing wouldn’t be appropriate for the elder child? All we know is he wanted to go- thought it was something fun- so why is the default to just dismiss his perspective and assume it’s invalid?

In terms of your point about “opting out”- it’s an interesting one. The fact is that Lizzie is tied to her DSS social, legally, practically. They share a family, a home etc. so she can choose how she behaves in the context of those ties - absolutely. But can she “opt out” of the relationship- not really - no.

User39498 · 09/06/2022 09:22

Tandora · 09/06/2022 09:05

no one has done anything wrong, no one is to blame and the focus shouldn’t be on changing behaviour but making sure the children see the positives in staying home

So nobody has to change anything except the child, who should be required to change his feelings (“see the positives in staying home”).

Ah, oddly it looks like you accidentally cut my last sentence in half which does give a slightly misleading view...

It said staying home with his father having quality time together... not just staying home.

Tandora · 09/06/2022 09:30

User39498 · 09/06/2022 09:22

Ah, oddly it looks like you accidentally cut my last sentence in half which does give a slightly misleading view...

It said staying home with his father having quality time together... not just staying home.

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Ok -

So nobody has to change anything except the child, who should be required to change his feelings (“see the positives in staying home and spending quality time with his dad”).

That’s the conclusion?

whumpthereitis · 09/06/2022 09:31

It was inappropriate for him to join because it was a trip out for the daughter with her grandparents. He was at home with his father and stepmother, the former being the person he’s actually there to see.

Thee stepmother can absolutely opt out of taking responsibility for him, and legally she has none. If you truly think that stepmothers should be equally responsible for their stepchildren then I take it you’ll support giving them equal legal status to the parents?