Page 34 | To be amazed how much women benefit financially from marriage

Singleparent78 · 2022-05-28T14:12:38+00:00

I've been single most of my adult life, worked FT and built up a good career but despite this... I'm always struck how much better off women who are married are than me. It's not just about the merging together of two salaries, but about how much easier financial life is when you have the benefit of a man's higher average income, giving many women a lifestyle they could never afford on their own salaries. Consider: the many women I work with on low salaries or working part-time who are living much nicer lifestyles than I as they have a man significantly supplementing them. the married women I know at 45+ who have moved to part-time or stopped working as they have accrued significant savings with their dh but, critically, their dh is now a high earner who can pay for both of them. the girls from school who didn't go onto further education, got married soon out of school and haven't worked at all or a bit of p-time - they mostly live in nice houses and cars, have enjoyed nice holidays etc. There hasn't been much 'penalty' for not being independent or not having a career. All in all these women, by way of marriage, seem to have an easier go than solo me slogging it out for 30 years working FT and trying my best to be independent.... like the teachers at school told us girls to be! I understand: all the constraints on women to generate their own income esp the gender pay gap and the impact of childrearing; that the above scenarios don't apply to all couples; that I'm assuming a heterosexual set up; that women contribute within marriages in other way than bringing in income; and that assets in a marriage are shared as is any income that comes into a marriage. I know people might think I'm being anti-women for challenging women's choices or women's rights or just plain bitter... Still, AIBU to wonder:.......*Is it not depressing that the best or most common way for women to be financially comfortable or create wealth is still through marriage and the merging of assets with a man?*

Nothappyatwork · 31/05/2022 08:11

@Goodskin46 Schools are far from expert at managing testosterone levels in teenage boys or more to the point any levels of anger management, there has literally been a gentle young boy killed coming back from the school prom this weekend by his peer, where did that one go wrong eh ?
The schools mental health provision to help children cope with this world that they find themselves in post/preindustrial is to give them a ticket to isolation when they’re not in the mood to do any work, isolation had more kids in it in the classroom.

nobody who are home educates is doing berry picking and WORDsearch is far more likely to be accessing the wonderful online provision. The opportunity to take the international baccalaureate 11+ currently usually only available to children in private schools which is a far more challenging and diverse curriculum than the one shoved down state school children’s throats.

My daughter’s studying GCSE science quoting from textbooks that we’re older than me.

My advice to anyone is if you can’t afford private home educate.

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:12

Goodskin46 · 31/05/2022 07:59

I work with lots of families who choose this type of lifestyle. It is incredibly difficult to deliver any semblance of a secondary curriculum in your
cirumstances. Re- intergration in to mainstream school doesn't really work after yr4 or so. There is very robust evidence that adolescents need to spend time away from their family and with their peer group. Very difficult if the rest of the peer group is at school. Then there's your children's work ethic and self efficacy again very difficult to nuture in the permissive attachment parenting set up you have.

In pre industrial times adults (particularly male ones) would have hunted. Adolescent males have an awful lot of testoterone which achools are expert in managing and channeling- but of course you have thought about that. Basically word searchs and picking berries is lovely with 4-11 year olds. Much harder to make it work later on.

Schools are experts in managing it? Lol. Schools are terrible for children of all ages, with the exception of a few. Do you think all we do is picking berries and word searches?

it is not normal or natural for children to be segregated by age. It is also not mandatory to follow the national curriculum, there are many types of home education and many subjects can be studied. People just have an issue with it because they’re so indoctrinated into the fact school is the default, when it’s actually optional and is historically a relatively new institution.

Nothappyatwork · 31/05/2022 08:16

I also laughed out loud at the provision that the school would keep anyone safe. The teachers mental health by all accounts is absolutely hanging by a thread in a lot of these places there micromanaged to within an inch of their lives.

as for important time spent with their peers, no I disagree, wherever anything is gone wrong in my kids lives it’s because some little shit has somehow managed to introduce themselves into it. They have their lovely friends of course who they’ve met through their hobbies which they’re mutually interested in. You know, like his adults do it

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:16

The opportunity to take the international baccalaureate 11+ currently usually only available to children in private schools which is a far more challenging and diverse curriculum than the one shoved down state school children’s throats.

What on earth are you talking about when you reference the "international baccalaureate 11+"?!

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:19

Nothappyatwork · 31/05/2022 08:16

I also laughed out loud at the provision that the school would keep anyone safe. The teachers mental health by all accounts is absolutely hanging by a thread in a lot of these places there micromanaged to within an inch of their lives.

as for important time spent with their peers, no I disagree, wherever anything is gone wrong in my kids lives it’s because some little shit has somehow managed to introduce themselves into it. They have their lovely friends of course who they’ve met through their hobbies which they’re mutually interested in. You know, like his adults do it

Yes. Schools are, mostly, terrible for mental health.

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:20

People just have an issue with it because they’re so indoctrinated into the fact school is the default, when it’s actually optional and is historically a relatively new institution.

No, I think people have an issue with it because it has the potential to be done very badly, with fewer checks and balances in place than other types of education (that also have the potential to be done badly).

I have known a few HE families. Some of them have done am outstanding job of educating their children, many of whom have transitioned successfully into mainstream education at various stages. Some of them have sadly failed their kids, and the system has failed them too.

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:23

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:20

People just have an issue with it because they’re so indoctrinated into the fact school is the default, when it’s actually optional and is historically a relatively new institution.

No, I think people have an issue with it because it has the potential to be done very badly, with fewer checks and balances in place than other types of education (that also have the potential to be done badly).

I have known a few HE families. Some of them have done am outstanding job of educating their children, many of whom have transitioned successfully into mainstream education at various stages. Some of them have sadly failed their kids, and the system has failed them too.

And yet schools do badly all the time (I’d argue most of the time, given how many people come out of the system with no critical thinking skills and an obsession with celebrity and consumerist culture but you’d probably disagree with me on that), yet no one raises an eyebrow because “schools must know what they’re doing! They’re the experts!”.

Thepeopleversuswork · 31/05/2022 08:25

@ForestFae

I find your posts quite offensive and upsetting at a personal level as a single mother who has no choice but to use childcare but tbh I am used to reading this sort of decadent nonsense from wealthy SAHMs so plus ca change. I am quite thick skinned about it.

Posters who make these comments always immediately come back with: “oh I wasn’t judging individual women, just the system”. Bollocks. You were judging. Own it.

Whar worries me more is the lack of intellectual rigour or consistency of this argument. You seem to lack the critical ability to understand that it is the capitalism you rail against which has allowed you to pursue this “natural” lifestyle. The irony would be funny if it wasn’t so upsetting to people like me.

Also you apparently lack the historical understanding to know that actually the idea of having a mother at home to attend to the child’s needs is a historical aberration and for the majority of human history this has not been the norm.

So to proclaim that it’s more “natural” is entirely false.

Goodskin46 · 31/05/2022 08:28

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:19

Yes. Schools are, mostly, terrible for mental health.

Show quote history

There was a recent experiment where millons of children were kept out of school so home educated by default (with the wonderful online resources out there). Mental health problems have skyrocketted since Covid. School is most definately good for most adolescents' mental health. I am not saying there aren't exceptions, but most 11-18 years olds are better off in school. Or is it only middle class DCs who should be home educated ?

Fairislefandango · 31/05/2022 08:28

I'm a teacher. I used to be really against the idea of home schooling. Tbh these days I can totally understand why people would do it.

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:29

Schools are, mostly, terrible for mental health.

I'm not so sure about this. Undoubtedly, schools are terrible for the mental health of some children and I understand why parents take their kids out in those circumstances, or indeed in cases where the parents had bad experiences themselves.

However, I don't think that the negative impact is universal by any means. I know a lot of kids whose mental health really suffered in the lockdown periods when schools were closed, but much less so when schools were open again, even though everything else was still shut.

Of course, that was an unusual situation and we shouldn't read too much into it as there were probably other factors at work, but I do know from talking to my dd and her friends that they really missed the structure that school provides, the daily contact with their peers, the contact with their teachers etc.

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:29

Thepeopleversuswork · 31/05/2022 08:25

@ForestFae

I find your posts quite offensive and upsetting at a personal level as a single mother who has no choice but to use childcare but tbh I am used to reading this sort of decadent nonsense from wealthy SAHMs so plus ca change. I am quite thick skinned about it.

Posters who make these comments always immediately come back with: “oh I wasn’t judging individual women, just the system”. Bollocks. You were judging. Own it.

Whar worries me more is the lack of intellectual rigour or consistency of this argument. You seem to lack the critical ability to understand that it is the capitalism you rail against which has allowed you to pursue this “natural” lifestyle. The irony would be funny if it wasn’t so upsetting to people like me.

Also you apparently lack the historical understanding to know that actually the idea of having a mother at home to attend to the child’s needs is a historical aberration and for the majority of human history this has not been the norm.

So to proclaim that it’s more “natural” is entirely false.

How was I judging you? I’ve said multiple times that there should be more financial support so that families who are less wealthy can stay at home with their children I’d they wish. I don’t blame anyone for doing what they have to do.

Thats just the old “how can you hate capitalism if you’ve got an iPhone, checkmate lefties!” argument - it’s possible to want to change a system while still currently living within that system.

Do…do you think I’m advocating for the nuclear family? I’m advocating for children to be brought along with whatever the parents do and an extended family network. I’m not saying I want a 1950s style set up.

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:30

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:29

Schools are, mostly, terrible for mental health.

I'm not so sure about this. Undoubtedly, schools are terrible for the mental health of some children and I understand why parents take their kids out in those circumstances, or indeed in cases where the parents had bad experiences themselves.

However, I don't think that the negative impact is universal by any means. I know a lot of kids whose mental health really suffered in the lockdown periods when schools were closed, but much less so when schools were open again, even though everything else was still shut.

Of course, that was an unusual situation and we shouldn't read too much into it as there were probably other factors at work, but I do know from talking to my dd and her friends that they really missed the structure that school provides, the daily contact with their peers, the contact with their teachers etc.

I’d hazard a guess that that’s because they’re used to it. If they’ve been in school settings since age 5, or before with nurseries, then it will be a massive shock to the system and they’ll likely prefer what they know. I agree we shouldn’t read too much into lockdown situations though.

Fairislefandango · 31/05/2022 08:36

There was a recent experiment where millons of children were kept out of school so home educated by default (with the wonderful online resources out there). Mental health problems have skyrocketted since Covid. School is most definately good for most adolescents' mental health. I am not saying there aren't exceptions, but most 11-18 years olds are better off in school. Or is it only middle class DCs who should be home educated ?

That's not a logical or fair conclusion. Compulsory distance learning with no prior preparation and no parental buy-in, in the middle of a global pandemic which will have had its own non-education-related effects on famies and their mental health, cannot be compared with a choice to home-educate.

'School is most definitely good for most adolescents' mental health' is a massive sweeping statement. Where is the evidence for that? How could there be evidence for that, when most adolescents have never experienced being home educated (as opposed to brief distance learning)? I am in schools all the time. The effects of the current climate in schools on people's mental health (students and staff) are pretty shocking.

RosesAndHellebores · 31/05/2022 08:36

@Nothappyatwork ds did the IB. Until 16 he studied for IGCE's and GCSCE'S whichever the school thought was to the same standard. The IB was a two year course instead of A'Levels.

The IB and A'Levels have advantages and disadvantages. The IB is brilliant for the all rounder and gives the young person the ability to manage across a range of 6 subjects. It so has the sport, community, care elements for three of the 45 points which broadens it further. It is not so great for those who know what they wish to specialise in. A'Levels give an edge for degrees that require specialist subjects such as medicine: physics, chem, maths, bio, etc., or for pupils who are very much left or right brain sided. A'Levels also allow for far greater depth of study.

Interestingly DS's school reintroduced A'Levels two years after he left. DS would have opted for them but stayed and did the IB because he loved the school.

DD started with 4 A'Levels and dropped French. Alongside grades 7 and 8 voice she found 4 too demanding.

DS has said that he found his first degree harder without the depth of study A'Levels would have brought but overall (at 27) thinks it was a great qualification.

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:37

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:23

And yet schools do badly all the time (I’d argue most of the time, given how many people come out of the system with no critical thinking skills and an obsession with celebrity and consumerist culture but you’d probably disagree with me on that), yet no one raises an eyebrow because “schools must know what they’re doing! They’re the experts!”.

Show quote history

That's rather a sweeping statement that I would suggest you're not qualified to make. I doubt that you have visited all schools to conduct an assessment of the quality of their education.

I am certainly not suggesting that schools always get it right (as I acknowledged in my previous post) but there are at least some controls in place to try and identify and address these instances, whereas there is no similar system of checks and controls for kids who are home educated.

As for celebrity culture and consumerism, I'm no fan of either, but in my experience, kids' attitudes towards these things tend to be influenced far more heavily by the parents than the schools.

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:39

Fairislefandango · 31/05/2022 08:36

There was a recent experiment where millons of children were kept out of school so home educated by default (with the wonderful online resources out there). Mental health problems have skyrocketted since Covid. School is most definately good for most adolescents' mental health. I am not saying there aren't exceptions, but most 11-18 years olds are better off in school. Or is it only middle class DCs who should be home educated ?

That's not a logical or fair conclusion. Compulsory distance learning with no prior preparation and no parental buy-in, in the middle of a global pandemic which will have had its own non-education-related effects on famies and their mental health, cannot be compared with a choice to home-educate.

'School is most definitely good for most adolescents' mental health' is a massive sweeping statement. Where is the evidence for that? How could there be evidence for that, when most adolescents have never experienced being home educated (as opposed to brief distance learning)? I am in schools all the time. The effects of the current climate in schools on people's mental health (students and staff) are pretty shocking.

I am really sick of people equating lockdown home schooling with elective home education. The two are nothing alike, but it shows people think home educating is just teaching your child with online resources, which is not the majority of what it is.

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:40

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:30

I’d hazard a guess that that’s because they’re used to it. If they’ve been in school settings since age 5, or before with nurseries, then it will be a massive shock to the system and they’ll likely prefer what they know. I agree we shouldn’t read too much into lockdown situations though.

Show quote history

Yes, being used to it might be a factor. But the kids who I know who have successfully transitioned into mainstream school from HE also seem to love it, even though they have clearly experienced an alternative approach as well. Not saying that they hated HE btw - I have no idea.

DashboardConfessional · 31/05/2022 08:43

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:39

I am really sick of people equating lockdown home schooling with elective home education. The two are nothing alike, but it shows people think home educating is just teaching your child with online resources, which is not the majority of what it is.

Show quote history

I am sick of you saying things like

It’s like people who have a dog when they work long hours and hire dog sitters - what exactly is the point?

And yet, you persist.

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:46

DashboardConfessional · 31/05/2022 08:43

I am sick of you saying things like

It’s like people who have a dog when they work long hours and hire dog sitters - what exactly is the point?

And yet, you persist.

Show quote history

I don’t see the issue with saying that to me, it seems pointless to have a child if at least one of you doesn’t want to spend the majority of your time with them (providing you have the means). My husband shares this view, so it’s fine, both of us are on the same page with raising our children. You don’t have to agree with me, you’re not married to me and we have no say in how each other raises our kids. It’s fine to disagree.

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:46

RosesAndHellebores · 31/05/2022 08:36

@Nothappyatwork ds did the IB. Until 16 he studied for IGCE's and GCSCE'S whichever the school thought was to the same standard. The IB was a two year course instead of A'Levels.

The IB and A'Levels have advantages and disadvantages. The IB is brilliant for the all rounder and gives the young person the ability to manage across a range of 6 subjects. It so has the sport, community, care elements for three of the 45 points which broadens it further. It is not so great for those who know what they wish to specialise in. A'Levels give an edge for degrees that require specialist subjects such as medicine: physics, chem, maths, bio, etc., or for pupils who are very much left or right brain sided. A'Levels also allow for far greater depth of study.

Interestingly DS's school reintroduced A'Levels two years after he left. DS would have opted for them but stayed and did the IB because he loved the school.

DD started with 4 A'Levels and dropped French. Alongside grades 7 and 8 voice she found 4 too demanding.

DS has said that he found his first degree harder without the depth of study A'Levels would have brought but overall (at 27) thinks it was a great qualification.

I think it probably depends on the subject. I did the IB too (at a state school, actually, despite @Nothappyatwork's comments) and didn't feel that I was less well prepared for university in the slightest. I agree that it's a good qualification but it definitely wouldn't suit everyone.

I'm still wondering what the international baccalaureate 11+ is though, and I'm wondering if @Nothappyatwork actually has any idea what she's talking about?

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:47

DashboardConfessional · 31/05/2022 08:43

I am sick of you saying things like

It’s like people who have a dog when they work long hours and hire dog sitters - what exactly is the point?

And yet, you persist.

Show quote history

Also that has literally nothing to do with what I said about home ed, but you keep bringing it up and won’t let it go. That’s a you issue. If you’re offended, that’s not really my problem. I haven’t intended to offend you, but you’re free to be angry about my comments if you wish.

DashboardConfessional · 31/05/2022 08:52

ForestFae · 31/05/2022 08:47

Also that has literally nothing to do with what I said about home ed, but you keep bringing it up and won’t let it go. That’s a you issue. If you’re offended, that’s not really my problem. I haven’t intended to offend you, but you’re free to be angry about my comments if you wish.

Show quote history

You know exactly as much about raising children around 2 working parents as some posters do about homeschooling. If we have to accept your offensive and hurtful comments, sorry, "non-judgemental disagreements" on that topic then you should accept the same the other way.

DashboardConfessional · 31/05/2022 08:53

Also - not angry about your comments. Angry you are lying several pages later that all you said was that society should be setup to allow more choice. All you said!

Mumwantingtogetitright · 31/05/2022 08:54

It does rather sound like you think that having children is more for the entertainment of the parents, @ForestFae , than it is about what you can give to the children.

What's the point of having them if you can't watch them all day? Well, it's to give them the very best life that you possibly can for them, to love and nurture them, to encourage and develop their interests and talents, to expose them to a rich variety of different experiences and people, and to guide them so that they can live happy, healthy and fulfilling lives.

Should I ask my dd if her life is pointless, because she didn't have the presence of a parent 24/7 when she was younger? Frankly, she would laugh in your face.