Expectation at work around working hours?

[Hop27]

We are back in the office FT and have been for a while. Contracted hours are 8:30-5, however EVERYONE works more as and when required to meet deadlines, get through workload.
My boss has started complaining about everyone's timekeeping, apparently coming in late (8:15) and leaving early (5:15/30), I walked in at 8:05 and it was noted that I was 'late' lots of jibes about working part time if you leave at 5.
He wants to sit everyone down and explain the expectation is that everyone works 8-5:30/6pm - everyday and that it's respectful to ask permission to leave early or arrive late. He keeps going on about how flexible he is and will support everyone to work flexibly.
If he isn't in the office he'll call after hours to see how your day was. I was on the train at 5:45, he called I answered and you could hear the disdain in his voice 'so you can't really talk because you've already left for the day and your on public transport' ....
AIBU (I doubt very much I am), I love my job but seriously how is this the way to treat people it's archaic. We are trying to hold an intervention about how ridiculous he is being!
(FWIW he is unhappy at home, it's common knowledge and uses work as an excuse not to go home)

Well, the people doing 37 hours a week probably actually have a life unlike your staff, so they're winning in that way.

I've always stuck to my contracted hours religiously. I don't have work email on my phone, I'm out of the office on time etc. If there's some disaster happening then yes, I'll work whatevers needed to solve the problem, but if that's happening more than once every 3 months or so, then something is very wrong with the company.

Doesn't seem to have hampered my career, I'm CTO of a medium sized business, and I hold my employees to the same standard that I work. You work your hours, occasionally yes you might have to work late, but you'll be compensated and recognised for it.

As far as I've noticed, the people who work 50 hour weeks are the ones who waffle on in meetings, have long phone calls etc. Which is fine, if thats how you work then great, as long as the work gets done.

If the work can't be done in 40 hours a week, then either you can't work efficiently or there's too much work, which is the companies problem to solve.

Of course I do. I'll tell you what, champ, when you run your own division of your company, you organise it how you like. Until then, please don't try to tell others that they are doing it wrong.

Yeah, that's definitely not the sort of thing a toxic boss would say :-)

There's an awful lot of people trying to convince themselves that unpaid labour is the only way to have a highly paid job. It's not true

Yes, the irony is that most well paid jobs either charge (a fortune) by the hour or are salaried and trusted to organise their day to get things done, not clock-watched.

Presenteeism is shit management in the vast majority of situations.

I worked in a school and got told off by the head for leaving 5 minutes earlier than she would have for a meeting at another school.

Prior to this conversation i always started work when I arrived (10-15 minutes early) and never complained when my unpaid lunch break was interrupted because I was the first aider.

so I did the mature thing and sat in my car for my lunch breaks and until 2 minutes before my shift.

I've rarely worked beyond my contracted hours and have been promoted above those doing overtime more than once. Set your boundaries and be firm with them. And look for another job if this twat is bothering you.

And I'm paid a lot, not because I work long hours but because I deliver. I have a wealth of experience and skills. My team are set objectives and I protect them from unreasonable demands. What is the point in hiring great people and then burning them out? I want them on top form so I get the best out of their big brains. If that means skiving on Friday afternoon to recharge - great. If that means picking their kids up from school - great. If that means a 10am start - great. So long as they're on top of their work.

Were you there before March 2020? What was the situation before lockdown?

I assume everyone was more willing and able to work longer hours when it was WFH?

@SlightlyGeordieJohn i get paid significantly more than 50 per hour as do lots of the people I manage. My industry has a culture of 9 - 5 and pays very well.

That's obscene, and it's clearly become a cultural expectation.

Both myself and my team do unpaid overtime, on occassion, when required, and we're encouraged to take the time back, with a lot of focus on work life/balance.

But regardless you need to challenge this formally like @Dishwashersaurous said. Don't dance around it. He's formally telling you your hours are different and longer than your contract. So where's the contract change?

Mine says the latter to...but it is assumed both on the employers side and on mine that the extended hours would only be required say to get a project over the finish line and not as a regular occurrence. If it were to be regularised, then the employer has in effect changed the terms and conditions of my contract by stealth.
I would want to be financially compensated for the change in the t&c of my contract, and if my manager wasn't open to negotiations, I would get on to my union and see what could be done.

I'm not a lawyer but I would know when I'm being taken for a ride!

Exactly. Being told you are expected to work from X to X outside of your contractual hours is in no way to be interrupted the same as:

you may be expected to work different or additional hours to fulfil business needs

Plus, that senance usually contains an 'occassionally' in most contracts I've seen.

Reminds me of an old boss that pulled me up cause i was 10 mins late a few mornings. Nothing was said for the extra hour or so i did most eves. Or the fact that i had come in some Saturdays to help out as production ran 24/7 issues would come up. That was the start of her nit picking so needless to say i didn't stay too long after. In my line of work there is always emergencies and the need to step in after hours or the weekends. But i expect it back when i need something. Needless to say i didn't stay too long there and heard after she was fired shortly after i left too. I am now with a company who is flexible, if we work over our hours we get it back, and we get recognized if we go above and beyond. If i need to leave early for a doc appointment or come in late one day there is never an issue. Everyone works different. What you are describing above is not flexible. You need to have a serious chat with your manager, he cant go on like this. He will loose - not might- will loose staff over this

It sounds like where I used to work! Except we weren’t in the office full time. My firm wanted to pay 20/30% below the going rate and demanded people be back in the office 3 days a week even though site visits and meetings easily took up 2 or 3 days per week and most people were going into the office for 2 days and only doing one day from home! They were also notorious ‘Teams watchers’ and you would get comments that you were ‘not available’ if your green light went to amber. Managers wanted access to everyone’s diaries so they could ‘check where you were’. Needless to say people have left in droves…

Set him on fire.

Or arrange that meeting and demand to know when the new contracts are being drawn up.

What industry are you in OP? The only industry I’ve seen this is sales/recruitment - they want their office filled with people who are obsessed with making as much money and commission as possible, and that does mean working outside of your contracted hours.

This morning 2 buses didn't show up, I'll still be in the office before 8:30, but I know I'll be met with a sneer. Just feel like saying fuck it and going home to work, but that's a whole other thread!
I'm in professional services OP.

I'd leave.

I've had bosses like this.

I explain that if they want me to routinely work 20% more hours (its essentially an extra day working a week) they will need to pay me 20% more.

End of.

My response to the 8.05 comment would be to look over my shoulder and say "I'm sorry I thought you were talking to someone else because I'm 25 minutes early."

After years of bosses taking the piss . I never work extra.
People who work over contracted hours for free are mugs.

Wanting paid for the hours you work isnt obstructive.
Not wanting to work for nothing isnt obstructive.

Yes, this.

There's not a hope in hell I'll work past my actual hours unless I really need or even want to. Work/life balance is important to me, and if they want more out of me they either change my contract or they find another person to pick up work that needs to be done during working hours.

I don't actually care if my boss thinks I'm not 'dedicated' enough to my job. Because I'm not. It's a job, not a lifestyle. FWIW I'm in a pretty well paid job in a huge organisation - if people are getting promoted over me because they work extra hours then so be it.

Yes this also reminds me of the manager who pulled me up for being less than five minutes late every so often due to a long bus ride but failed to see I was working an extra half hour in the afternoon because of the time my bus collected me to go home.

So I stopped doing that. I also made sure I took a break whenever he had a cigarette, and didn't cut short my lunch because a phone happened to be ringing.

In my next job the bus dropped me in front of the post office so I collected our office post for the morning so was often 10 or so minutes late in. I remember worriedly asking if that was ok and them telling me of course it was, not only had they asked me to do it but they were aware of my long bus ride in and were happy to be flexible here and there.

My standard response to questions like this is ‘have I misunderstood (the hours/the timeline/the expectation)?’ and let them answer, which is followed with my ‘that’s not my understanding.’

My work is a bit like that and a lot of people fall into the trap of working over their hours. I categorically do not! My thinking is that work have ‘bought’ 37.5 hours per week of my time. If I work more than that then my hourly rate goes down as they are getting time for free. The only time I do more is if I get time in lieu or overtime money. Other than that I down tools at 16.30, life’s too short to care that much about work 🤷‍♀️

It’s great that so many people can stick to their set hours, but certain jobs are output based, meaning in order to meet those particular tasks you need to put in some extra time. If you work in one of those jobs you either become a lot more efficient at getting things done (which some people are good at) or, most often, accept that you need to do extra but are flexible about when you do that, and know it will vary.

OP accepts some extra hours are inevitable in their job, but the galling part of the situation is that their boss seems to be claiming the start and finish hours differ to the contact, and is saying they are late when they are in fact early. This needs to be dealt with, as this kind of attitude is what makes employees feel unmotivated and want to leave an otherwise enjoyable job.

It sounds like boss is a bit of a bully, so I can see why it feels difficult to tackle it, but you have to do it. If there are enough staff willing, the best thing to do is band together and perhaps have a group meeting with the boss, or individually send emails setting out your concerns on the same day. Do you have a HR manager you could use as a buffer?

Otherwise, you will have to just set out your own expectations - say that you have always gone above and beyond in this role, but going forward you will need to choose when any extra work beyond your contractual hours is performed, to suit your schedule. If the boss says it’s essential to do more every day then you need to say that they have therefore set an unrealistic workload for your role.

This is why unions are helpful, but you need a certain percentage of staff to be in the union for the workplace to formally recognise it. They could still give you advice if you join though.

Good luck - let us know how it goes.