Expectation at work around working hours?

[Hop27]

We are back in the office FT and have been for a while. Contracted hours are 8:30-5, however EVERYONE works more as and when required to meet deadlines, get through workload.
My boss has started complaining about everyone's timekeeping, apparently coming in late (8:15) and leaving early (5:15/30), I walked in at 8:05 and it was noted that I was 'late' lots of jibes about working part time if you leave at 5.
He wants to sit everyone down and explain the expectation is that everyone works 8-5:30/6pm - everyday and that it's respectful to ask permission to leave early or arrive late. He keeps going on about how flexible he is and will support everyone to work flexibly.
If he isn't in the office he'll call after hours to see how your day was. I was on the train at 5:45, he called I answered and you could hear the disdain in his voice 'so you can't really talk because you've already left for the day and your on public transport' ....
AIBU (I doubt very much I am), I love my job but seriously how is this the way to treat people it's archaic. We are trying to hold an intervention about how ridiculous he is being!
(FWIW he is unhappy at home, it's common knowledge and uses work as an excuse not to go home)

Someone has just left my workplace, and others were heard saying "The problem with X is he wants the money but only wants to work 9 - 5:30". I have also previously been told that "it's the nature of the job to work longer hours to catch up" when I was massively overworked and totally stressed. At first I really bought into that but then realised some weeks I was working an extra 4 hours a week for no extra money and no thanks. So I won't do it now. I arrive on time and leave on time.

The idea here though that the attitude that's appropriate on a low-paid job that's paid by the hour is also automatically appropriate in a high-paying profession is imbecilic.

I'm not seeing that here at all. If you're contracted to do a job, with core office hours stated as a starting point, then everybody knows where they stand. One thing that is usually the case for people in high-paying professions, though, is that they tend to be given responsibility and trust to make plans and decisions themselves as to how they work to get the job done.

It's far more commonly those on low pay who have the bosses who just see them as fleshy robots and commodities, without valuing them as people or trusting them at all. There's no culture of negotiating a fair working relationship with give and take and mutual benefit: they watch over and monitor them like hawks, determined to get every last penny's worth for what they grudgingly pay them. Respect and loyalty are a two-way street, as you rightly say.

I work my hours and nothing more, nothing less. I used to stay on but I realised if you do that you just get more and more work and the scope of your work creeps upwards as it appears you can do it. Different to an over bearing boss doing it for the sake of it, but equally unacceptable. I also don't agree that just because someone is paid a lot they should deal with this either. Its one thing to acknowledge you may have to do x, y out of standard hours or be on call- another for someone to just decide to check in and change the goalposts for no real reason.

I'd go for the meeting and take your contract. Depending what you do though I'd look for something else, for many things the job market is pretty good right now.

Same lily. I do my hours no more. Our boss a builder used to comment a guy rushing out at 5pm. To be fair he had young kids in childcare. These people must have no lives lol. I feel I put in my hours. No extra or extra monies

In all these jobs where unpaid overtime is expected and necessary week in, week out - why isn't it in the contract?
Can you imagine having a contract stating you had 30 days annual leave and then someone saying, oh but it's only expected you take 20 of them otherwise you won't get promoted?

I can only speak for my sector ( academia) but they'd never get a contract that actually reflected the hours we work agreed by the unions or HR!!
And although we get very generous annual leave it's actually very difficult to take it all.

OP your manager will only change if you are all on board with telling them its unreasonable (and even then its no guaranteed). If some are willing to go along with the unpaid presenteeism then your boss will just gradually replace the dissenters with bright young things who'll toe the line.

Is the salary good? I'm public sector these days and no way would you get people working outside their contracted hours like that, but that's because the pay is rubbish.

I have always worked in industries were working extra is fairly standard, particularly if you are ambitious and career driven, which I am. It's also a well paid industry.

Having said that, while I routinely arrived earlier than contracted hours and left elater, I would have taken issue with any manager commenting on me being "late" for work if I was there before my official tart time and ditto if I left at official end time. Part of the trade off of this type of working is that you do it because you want to get ahead etc but your boss knows that you're doing it and that is acknowledged. So even in super aggressive, high pressure environments where only doing your contracted hours might be career limiting, there's absolutely no call for accusing someone of being late or leaving early.

Of course I do. I'll tell you what, champ, when you run your own division of your company, you organise it how you like. Until then, please don't try to tell others that they are doing it wrong.

Yes, you organise it how you like, but however high up you get, that still doesn't mean that you can treat your employees as pawns, without needs, concerns and respect due to them as humans. I'm not necessarily saying that you are of this opinion or behaviour, but a lot of people who might have phrased it in the way that you just did would be.

I think that a lot of rot set in when 'Personnel' (suggesting 'the individual humans who work here together and make everything function') became 'Human Resources' (suggesting 'the things that we own and control, just like the buildings, desks, computers and air con, but that happen to be human').

Your boss sounds like a twat.
However, I think it also slightly depends on how much you get paid (though it probably shouldn't). An admin job on 20k - YADNBU. A professional job on 100k, maybe not so much...

I agree with a PP - is this a 15k a year job or a 150k job? Cos the expectations will be different

I worked in professional and financial services in the City for years - my contracts all said that my contracted hours were 37 hours but that I would be expected to work more as needed.

Having said that, NOT doing so would reduce bonuses/promotions. No one would ever be disciplined or accused of being late if they came in at 8:15 when official start was 8:30. I did work somewhere once were contracted hours were 9:00-17:30, but a longer day was totally standard. For me, pre-kids, it made sense to be in early so I was usually at my desk by 8:00 but would leave fairly promptly and was almost never there after 18:00 and often left at 17:30. It took my boss a while to realise that i wasn't slacking as most people (including her) tended to come in at 9:00 or even a bit later but then stay until 19:00. That didn't work for me but it took her a while to realise I wasn't slacking.

Regardless of the business needs, it seems to me that he is using his personal issues and taking it out on those who work for him.

If he mentions flexibly again, suggest one or two days a week working from home, so that you have some time back.

I agree with everyone who says new contracts must be issued otherwise there cannot be this expectation and pressure to work longer hours on a regular basis. Occasionally is usually acceptable to most folk

What are you going on about? Who said anything about £12 an hour? You have no idea what my profession is or was nor what my hourly rate is like.

But I'm enjoying your insistence that you value your staff who you expect to work 60 hours even though they're only contracted to work 37 but that's ok because 'they get £50 an hour'.

Lol, bosses like you are a nightmare.

Can you imagine having a contract stating you had 30 days annual leave and then someone saying, oh but it's only expected you take 20 of them otherwise you won't get promoted?

Sadly, there are a lot of toxic cultures that work this way. Good companies of all sizes respect the balance between people working hard whilst they're supposed to and also valuing the time that's their own, to do what they want/need for themselves and their families.

Some of these companies know that they have to officially adhere to the law and agreed terms, but make it widely crystal clear that actually using and enjoying the benefits to which you're entitled will be viewed as weakness, lack of dedication and be punished accordingly. They're the corporate equivalent of the bullies who shame, belittle and gossip about anybody who has the audacity to have a poo in the work toilets - as if they were somehow 'obviously' doing anything wrong, inappropriate or not allowed.

It is not evident from your posts, that’s for sure.

thats a very aggressive post. Clearly a nerve has been hit.

Some of us care about working people and hate to see them being exploited. Often folk put up with crap working conditions because they feel they have no other choice.

i find that attitude despicable and because I care about people I will continue to speak out.

YANBU. Stick to your hours and get the job done in that time.

Regardless of the business needs, it seems to me that he is using his personal issues and taking it out on those who work for him.

Absolutely. He may just be a performance workaholic, but for all we know, he could be constantly arguing with his wife whenever they're together, hence his desire to spend as much time as possible in the workplace - and deeply jealous of other people who like spending time with their loved ones before and after work.

It’s a supply and demand issue. Do the companies want to lose workers to places with a better work environment? Do the employees want to miss out on promotion etc? I know someone who is taking over 10k cut in salary to a place with identical contracted hours, less additional benefits, but better working culture. I guess it’s about expectations, communication and individual situations. I think a more bespoke approach to working contracts and explicit statements about working hours would help both employers and employees.

In most jobs I've gone in and started work (after tea, checking emails etc) usually at 9.15/9.30. Once in one job we had an office manager who seemed to think we should be typing away at 9 or soon after and we soon put her right on that, very easy to boss others around!

I've also had shitty bosses who demand you're in on time and if 5-10 minutes late they don't like it, so for them I was never late. I've also had bosses who don't like if you leave on time despite that's what you're paid for (shitty place to work anyway and left after 18 months!). I now generally work my paid hours and as I'm a contractor I bill for those. I work overtime if needed but bill for that. In a permanent job it'd be good will on my part and make up/take off time as needed. I've learned after 50 years of working for companies (well not that long but since 17) that companies and bosses are rarely grateful if you do put extra time in and don't seem to think that if you leave on time to catch trains that it's because you actually want to be at home. I don't give a toss about their unhappy family lives if they don't want to go home, not my circus!

He can’t unilaterally alter your contracted hours. If you were minded to work 8-6 daily then you’d need new contact and pay rise. If he’s bullying low paid junior staff like this then he’s possibly breaching minimum wage legislation.
I wouldn’t tolerate being called late when I’m not or answer calls out of hours if that’s his attitude.
If your hours are til 5 and he’s treating people leaving on time detrimentally he’s on very thin ice - people have many reasons to leave on time hence why they chose a job with those hours not the one paying more but until 5.30 etc.
HR need to know as they’ll be dealing with claims.
I’d be very tempted to visibly work contracted hours for foreseeable.

I think a more bespoke approach to working contracts and explicit statements about working hours would help both employers and employees.

Yep, if I had two contracts on the table, one for 40 hours at 160k and one for 60 hours at 240k I'm going to pick the 40 hours one. If you want people to work 60 hour weeks at least own it

I know someone who is taking over 10k cut in salary to a place with identical contracted hours, less additional benefits, but better working culture. I guess it’s about expectations, communication and individual situations

I went from earning £85k to £40k to do a part time job 9-5.

Now I'm doing that job FT for £75k and am often able to knock off at 4pm or 4.30pm. As long as I get the job done, no-one cares about hours. No timesheets and very little stress.

I could be earning over £100k but it's just not worth it for a toxic work culture with long hours. I'm much too lazy into doing other things with my life than work.

This is ridiculous! He can't make you come earlier or stay later than your contracted hours. If they want you to start at 8 and finish at 6 then they should change your contract to reflect that but you still have to sign it in agreement even then. It's not your problem if deadlines aren't met when you are all working as hard as you can and even offer to stay later/come in earlier. You have lives to live outside of work. If he has a shit life outside of work then that's his problem

I work in the sort of job where (unpaid) extra hours are just expected as part of the deal, but they wouldn’t dare say anything if I wasn’t in earlier or later than my contracted hours, and it’s much more flexible, so you can do the extra hours when you can, and finish early another day, for example.
Apart from the fact he is trying to unlawfully extend your working day without any consultation or new contract being issued, he is being very petty about time keeping. All that does is create a clock in, clock out mentality.
You all need to band together on this and point out that those are not your contracted hours. Ask him whether there will be a structured payment system for overtime going forward to really scare him.
Honestly, what a cheeky bastard.